Odd behaviour on layout under construction

[rreckless]

Hi,
I’m seeing some odd behaviour on my layout which is under construction.

Currently I have a very temporary bus wire with a single dropper wire connecting to it (for now). This used to work and trains would run happily around the circuit.

Since then I have laid significantly more track, I now have 2 circuits and 4 quite long sidings all connected up, but still just the one dropper.

The behaviour I’m seeing is, when I put my 158 on the original circuit, the lights come on and everything looks fine, however when I try and move the train nothing happens. Alongside this, if I trigger the engine start sound, it continuously repeats the first note of the sound, as though it’s being restarted over and over.

My gut feeling is this is because there is now a lot of track connected to the layout and only 1 set of dropper wires actually powering it. Is my gut right? Or do I have a different issue? I’m planning on adding more droppers all over the layout, but have no solder as yet to do it.

[Dad-1]

I would say almost certainly there is too much resistance and that additional
track feeds will be needed.
Is your track connected with rail joiners ? These are always suspect. I have always
said EVERY individual piece of track needs it's own supply, that way you never have
to rely on rail joiners.
Twice I've not followed my own rules and twice I've had various track power problems.
It may seem like a lot of 'extra' work, but to NEVER have problems is great.

Geoff T.

[centenary]

Hi,
I’m seeing some odd behaviour on my layout which is under construction.

Currently I have a very temporary bus wire with a single dropper wire connecting to it (for now). This used to work and trains would run happily around the circuit.

Since then I have laid significantly more track, I now have 2 circuits and 4 quite long sidings all connected up, but still just the one dropper.

The behaviour I’m seeing is, when I put my 158 on the original circuit, the lights come on and everything looks fine, however when I try and move the train nothing happens. Alongside this, if I trigger the engine start sound, it continuously repeats the first note of the sound, as though it’s being restarted over and over.

My gut feeling is this is because there is now a lot of track connected to the layout and only 1 set of dropper wires actually powering it. Is my gut right? Or do I have a different issue? I’m planning on adding more droppers all over the layout, but have no solder as yet to do it.

A 'very temporary' bus doesnt sound good. But other factors are important such as thickness of bus wire and droppers plus what voltage your supply is putting out. Also, rail joiners are not the best for transmitting power to those pieces of track that do not have droppers.

The better solution is to have a pair of droppers per piece of track and keep the track itself clean. Just my opinion though.

[aleopardstail]

try the loco where the droppers connect.

you shouldn't have issues with voltage drop on one loop even a quite large one enough to do this

this sounds like something is corrupting the signal. with the power off get a multi-meter and check the resistance between the rails at the DCC controller outputs, where the feeds to the rails are and at various points around the loop. it should show "OL" at all points with it powered off. you may have a small short circuit

also test the train on a short test track connected directly to the controller with the layout disconnected

if the problem goes away start to break the loop - if it was a circle with the feed at 12 o'clock, break at 3 & 9 top split the loop in half and try again, tells you which half the problem is in

I would suspect a point somewhere is causing a partial short circuit

[rreckless]

Thanks for the responses. Given me a few things to try.

First up I’m going to disconnect the outer loop from the inner loop, as that worked previously and will mean the one set of droppers is only powering one loop. If that works I will then connect the outer loop back up but keep the sidings disconnected. I’ve had that work also, so hopefully that will lead me to reconnecting the sidings (they’re quite long) and if that breaks at least I know why.

My plan is to have everything except the 2 loops isolated anyway, so hopefully a simple fix.

I am trying to avoid droppers from every track as soldering on n gauge track is not fun. I was planning on droppers at each end of every straight stretch of track but I’ll see how that goes, I may yet end up with droppers everywhere, but I hope not

[aleopardstail]

Thanks for the responses. Given me a few things to try.

First up I’m going to disconnect the outer loop from the inner loop, as that worked previously and will mean the one set of droppers is only powering one loop. If that works I will then connect the outer loop back up but keep the sidings disconnected. I’ve had that work also, so hopefully that will lead me to reconnecting the sidings (they’re quite long) and if that breaks at least I know why.

My plan is to have everything except the 2 loops isolated anyway, so hopefully a simple fix.

I am trying to avoid droppers from every track as soldering on n gauge track is not fun. I was planning on droppers at each end of every straight stretch of track but I’ll see how that goes, I may yet end up with droppers everywhere, but I hope not

one thing I found helped, while soldering to the track is a pain, soldering to metal fishplates is simple

[rreckless]

Thanks for the responses. Given me a few things to try.

First up I’m going to disconnect the outer loop from the inner loop, as that worked previously and will mean the one set of droppers is only powering one loop. If that works I will then connect the outer loop back up but keep the sidings disconnected. I’ve had that work also, so hopefully that will lead me to reconnecting the sidings (they’re quite long) and if that breaks at least I know why.

My plan is to have everything except the 2 loops isolated anyway, so hopefully a simple fix.

I am trying to avoid droppers from every track as soldering on n gauge track is not fun. I was planning on droppers at each end of every straight stretch of track but I’ll see how that goes, I may yet end up with droppers everywhere, but I hope not

one thing I found helped, while soldering to the track is a pain, soldering to metal fishplates is simple

I tried a bit of that but with the only solder I had, which was cheap crap that came with the iron.

Might try again now I have decent rosin core solder.

[Flashbang]

The weakest link in a model railway, regardless of scale, is the fishplate (metal rail joiner) it often produces a high resistance joint rail to rail. Causes are frequently found to be - continual removing and refitting track causing the joiner to become loose / slack on the rails, ballast glue inside the joiner, track paint inside the joiner and even airborne dust particles entering the joiner. All to often DC users say "my loco comes to a halt or slows when on a section of track" DCC users will say "Loco stops on a section of track". All due to joiners being used to pass power (and DCC data) rail to rail.
So why is it being recommended to solder droppers to rail joiners? Solder them to the rails undersides before track laying or to the outer web area if the track has already been laid. Use the joiners for the job they are really designed to do - align abutting rails. Nothing else!
Ideally, solder droppers to every piece of track.

As for solder, try to obtain 60/40 lead content cored solder rather than the 'Lead Free' type. 60/40 solder is still available for repair work. (Lead free has to be used by manufacturers who sell soldered items). 60/40 will flow at a lower soldering irons temperature and make a good joint, so long as all items being soldered are clean and free of any grease or other contaminants. Use a fibre brush or a file to clean areas where soldering is to occur, do this even on brand new track. Keep the soldering irons tip in first class condition and never file it as its coated in a special layer to assist soldering. Wipe hot tip on a damp sponge to remove old solder. Always wash your hands after using lead content solder.

[rreckless]

The weakest link in a model railway, regardless of scale, is the fishplate (metal rail joiner) it often produces a high resistance joint rail to rail. Causes are frequently found to be - continual removing and refitting track causing the joiner to become loose / slack on the rails, ballast glue inside the joiner, track paint inside the joiner and even airborne dust particles entering the joiner. All to often DC users say "my loco comes to a halt or slows when on a section of track" DCC users will say "Loco stops on a section of track". All due to joiners being used to pass power (and DCC data) rail to rail.
So why is it being recommended to solder droppers to rail joiners? Solder them to the rails undersides before track laying or to the outer web area if the track has already been laid. Use the joiners for the job they are really designed to do - align abutting rails. Nothing else!
Ideally, solder droppers to every piece of track.

As for solder, try to obtain 60/40 lead content cored solder rather than the 'Lead Free' type. 60/40 solder is still available for repair work. (Lead free has to be used by manufacturers who sell soldered items). 60/40 will flow at a lower soldering irons temperature and make a good joint, so long as all items being soldered are clean and free of any grease or other contaminants. Use a fibre brush or a file to clean areas where soldering is to occur, do this even on brand new track. Keep the soldering irons tip in first class condition and never file it as its coated in a special layer to assist soldering. Wipe hot tip on a damp sponge to remove old solder. Always wash your hands after using lead content solder.

I was looking for lead solder rather than lead free, but couldn't find it anywhere

[Flashbang]

Plenty available Four examples below.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325025587811 ... O0QAvD_BwE

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384796180029 ... 101224.m-1

https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d03346 ... A4QAvD_BwE

https://www.diy.com/departments/duratoo ... 956_BQ.prd

[rreckless]

Plenty available Four examples below.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325025587811 ... O0QAvD_BwE

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384796180029 ... 101224.m-1

https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d03346 ... A4QAvD_BwE

https://www.diy.com/departments/duratoo ... 956_BQ.prd

lol, I was in store looking for it in B&Q and a couple of other shops . have ordered some, thanks!

I also think my issue is not what I thought. I've gone all the way back to a single piece of track, wired up. Same issue. Starting to think either something wrong with the decoder in the loco, or more likely, issues with the connection between controller and droppers. Next stop will be to remove existing droppers, replace with better, thicker cable and replace bus wire to rule all of them out.

[rreckless]

Before I did anything else, I factory reset the hornby select. Now everything works again.

That’s quite frustrating, but also quite nice


And after a brief test, I have full running on my 2 circuits, which means I can add some more droppers for sanity and start the permanent wiring

[aleopardstail]

"Hornby select"

ahh yes, not that bad as a gets you started thing but worth replacing as its not very capable

plus side its working again though

[rreckless]

"Hornby select"

ahh yes, not that bad as a gets you started thing but worth replacing as its not very capable

plus side its working again though

Yeah, I've been looking at alternatives at the Stafford Model Railway Exhibition this weekend, oddly enough. Clearly the Select realised this and decided not to play nice

[aleopardstail]

it is a well know fact that to get the best from electronics they need to know fear

the all in one thing DCC-EX do is worth a look, can drive via a phone or JMRI over wifi, very capable device