Track Boosters 'D.C' Further Up The Long Layout (That DO NOT Require Soldering)

[Hornchurch]

'


Bit sad asking this, as it's the first (daft) question I've asked since Bufferstop sadly passed away

I've been collecting Locomotives & rolling stock, gradually over time...

Don't as yet have a layout (due to Family), but am saving one by, Loco's & large Track for my retirement

I'd like to have a largish full room sized layout & have been gradually buying track (lengthy bits)


As I'd suspect, the further from the controller, the more I'd expect the engine's speed to (slightly) decrease & hopefully not falter.

By that, I mean me having a large room-sized oval maybe 15-20ft in length (overall, 20ft both sides, for example)


I must also stress that I'll be running "D.C" ONLY & I have zero interest in DCC


So, I'm aware that Hornby sell R.8201 named "Track Link Wire Pack" & have read the wires are super-short

I have several questions to ask as a dumb-a$$ novice (returnee) regarding the above... namely...


1, Are the Power Clips as supplied in "R.8201" the exact same as in the "R.602" ?

( Any resistors or capacitors or other electronic additives inside one & not the other ? )


2, Assuming I get a 20ft plus length layout - **Can I expect any notable drop in power "on the other side" away from the controller ?


I've bought a brand new Four track "Gaugemaster Q" which I've used in conjunction with Hornby's Rolling Road...

(since these pix were taken) viewtopic.php?p=669454#p669454



3, **If so, can I literally "Boost" the power MUCH further up the track / layout by using "R.602"s or "R.8201"s with much longer wires ?


4, Again, if I can use those clips as 'track boosters' futher up the other end or side, which thickness wire do I need ?


5, Is there a 'sweet spot' in a 15-20ft "Oval" layout (no-points BTW), at which stage thereafter a Gaugemaster DC would struggle to push ?


6, If those "R.602" or "R.8201" clips CAN be used as an 'up the track booster', how many is it safe to use ?


As you can already tell, am clueless (generally) about Train-set Electrics in general & can barely wire a plug (Laughs, you get my drift ?)

Apologies for the dumb / dim / daft questions, as I've no wish to short-circuit my track, intended layout, nor the expensive Gaugemaster.Q

Am hoping that someone out there like Big.Met (& previously, Bufferstop R.i.P) can go easy on me & explain in simplistic terms, please ?

Thanks in advance...

'

[aleopardstail]

never feel you need to apologise for asking questions.

the power feed tracks and clips are perfectly fine for adding additional droppers to a layout with longer wires added. the ones with spring clips (the little button you push down) are easy as you only need to strip the wire

R8201 is a link pack, its meant to connect adjacent tracks, as you note, the wires are short. they also have a crimped plug on the end to slot into the bits that insert into the rails. I suspect they are identical to the R602 clips just in a pack with extra wire.

PECO also have ST273, a pair of track power clips, these have spade connectors on, can be soldered, but since you don't want that PECO also have PL-31 which are the crimp connectors (if you don't want to solder a crimp tool is very useful, indeed for me short of the actual wire to rail its all crimp connectors, so if the surface connectors are fine for you this is easy)

also have a look at PECO PL-82, these are fishplates with wires soldered to them, much lower profile and while the wires are not overly long they are enough to feed to a screw terminal connector block

with a loop the size you propose I'd be tempted to stick power feeds at probably four roughly equally spaced locations, as and when you come up with an idea for a plan I'm sure several here can advise on how to wire it up.

for this sort of power feed I'd probably go with a ring of wire for each rail running under the board, then these dropper feeds can be connected to that, there are plenty of solderless solutions for this and they are becoming more reliable (to the point they don't fail) and are easy to use, the WAGO type for example and you just need wire strippers which you will need anyway. 24/02 wire is probably plenty for a DC layout.

over that sort of length you could get away with single feeds, I had a 24'x13' loft layout with just one feed that ran DC initially and worked, it got a few more added though as there was a bit of a slow down, only really a problem when you have trains stopping at a distance as sometimes they object to starting again.

key though, there is no such thing as a stupid question, everyone has to start somewhere and unless you have fiddled with electrickery before its not exactly intuitive and many guides assume you know what you are doing.

if for example you are going for a somewhat classic "twin oval" with a few sidings and loops, crossover or two, then DC is perfectly fine and is not some sort of second rank choice, its minimal fuss and with an oval set up having two trains looping and maybe a third controller for some sidings works perfectly well.

there may be benefit to switches to allow any controller to control any track but they are not needed and keeping it simple has a lot of advantages

[Bigmet]

I would only add to the above, that a 25W soldering iron, rosin cored solder, and learning how to make electrical joints frees you FOREVER! from clips to connect power to the rails, and you can buy wire cheaply 'anywhere'. (Or even use salvaged mains 'twin and earth' wires ripped out of the sheathing; since 1990 all my layouts track power distribution has been wired this way.)

Bonus: when a soldered joint or clip on connection in a loco fails, it can be quickly repaired.

[Mountain]

20ft is not a long distance so is no issue on DC. 200ft outdoor railway ideally needs an amp and a half (Or more) on DC. Hope this helps.

Soldering is simple enough. The three main things to ensure success (And safety) are get a heavy solder stand so one is way less likely to burn oneself. A stand that does not risk falling over. Of all the times I have accidently burnt myself it was using soldering iron without a suitable stand.

2nd is to use a soldering iron that is powerful enough. Do not bother with tiny pinpoint tips as they don't transfer the heat so much. They are for soldering tiny components. I would use 25 watt or more, OR if one is soldering tin cans to make things, one needs a 40 watt iron.

Then use a lead type of solder as it runs better and does not require so much heat to melt, and buy some flux. Clean the area being soldered with something abrasive. Wear eye protection incase of possible flux splatter, and apply a little flux, and then heat the item one needs to solder and then add the item one wants to solder to, and then apply the solder to let it run then remove the iron. One should then end up with a soldered joint. When the item is hot enough the solder easily runs onto other. If it is too cold, the solder tends to look curved and does not flow right. Also the solder sticks to the iron rather than the item one is trying to solder!

There is a knack of soldering track as one needs to heat the rails quickly so one does not melt the sleepers which is why a more powerful iron is better. One wants the solder to melt onto the wire and the rails of the track so one can remove the wire before the heat melts the sleepers... I have found that using low wattage weaker irons, one needs to keep the iron tip touching the rail much longer to heat it up, which is what tends to melt the sleepers! Why a higher wattage iron is preferred!

For a beginner, I used a resistance soldering gun. Ideal for soldering wires onto rails, but when I was making my own track, it melted itself, as resistance soldering irons heat up fast but one is only supposed to apply the trigger for a couple of seconds. Making track means one is using it all the time one sleeper after the next which is not suitable for the gun type. Need an ordinary type of iron if one ever makes ones own track. I used a variable temperature 50W iron because it was what I had, but I later bought a standard 40w iron. I bought spare tips as I found the wider tips transfer the heat better than narrow tips. Try not to overnighter tips. Yes, they need to be tight so they don't fall out, but one can damage the element on some types of iron if one tightens the tips too tight.

Practice on old track is best. If one is concerned about burning oneself, wear heat protective gloves. Also ensure one always uses the soldering iron stand. A really good heavier type of stand is the best safety device when soldering! Some small lightweight stands topple over. Get a nice one. Budget shops sell solder. Try and get the lead type (Usually 40% lead and 60% tin) if one can. Other solders do work, but one will really find the leaded type MUCH easier to use. Obviously wash hands after use, and don't spend too much time in the solder fumes! (Mind you, people used to spend years soldering in factories using these solders without any extractor fans and they survived! But understandably workplace regulations came in as lead fume enviroment was not ideal! But these guys did long daily shifts soldering. At home for a few minutes or an hour or two is not going to be a problem. Open a window to allow air to circulate if one is concerned.

[aleopardstail]

joust pointing out that while the volt drop is probably fine (rails being thicker than most wire gauges used) the issue tends to be the fishplates so having a couple of feeds won't hurt.

and to be honest if someone wishes to avoid soldering the various track clips or soldered fishplates will do the job nicely with various solderless connectors hooking it up

[Hornchurch]

20ft is not a long distance so is no issue on DC.

'

I would only add to the above, that a 25W soldering iron, rosin cored solder, and learning how to make electrical joints frees you FOREVER! from clips to connect power to the rails, and you can buy wire cheaply 'anywhere'.
Bonus: when a soldered joint or clip on connection in a loco fails, it can be quickly repaired.

'

Never feel you need to apologise for asking questions

'


Gents : First off, many, many thanks for your detailed replies - Trust me, it's much appreciated.

Secondly : My sincerest apologies for not getting back to "Y'all" sooner to express my thanks.

Have been caught up in a mountain of things lately (no pun intended,to forumite named mountain)

All seems to've kicked-off since the clocks went back Forward / Backward /Sideways (don't delete, all applicable !!)

I went to my first model railway event yesterday ( Saturday 3rd May ) & learned some of what BigMet' was speaking of


I had a MAJOR result whilst there & I snagged a near Mint condition Gaugemaster D twin controller for just £30.00

Woke up this morning in sheer utter amazement at such a ripe & cherished bargain - ( We ALL love a stroke of luck, time to time )

Guy named Steve who I bought it from even tested it in front of me ( Goodwill gesture ) which he needn't have done.

Whilst chatting to him I noticed he had done what you guys had mentioned... soldering along the lower-outer edge of the rails

I asked him "How do you avoid melting the ( plastic ) sleepers ??"

His soldering iron had a variable settings dial, plus, it also had a sharp(ish) looking point, rather like a Pen

My initial experiences with a 1950's soldering iron (as a kid) was, it was more like a miniature trowel (!)

I'll take on board what you guys have suggested, but, it'll take quite some time in future before I hone my soldering skills.


Lastly, I just wanna say a special thanks to "aleopardstail" who'd kindly said... never feel you need to apologise for asking questions.

I did (initially) feel a bit daft, asking questions about rail-continuity regarding electrics & voltage drop

Perhaps I do need to attend more local model (railway) shows like the one I attended yesterday & be a keen observer.

'

[Dad-1]

I'm a big believer in having as many droppers as you can be bothered to fit in.
While 20 feet is not a long section I recall back in the 1970's when I was racing
Scalectric cars we were able to notice voltage drops around the plug together
track. Every join is a weak spot, we used to use plug in cross wiring, but it was
always there somewhere !!
The result has been that since becoming a railway modeller I aim to have soldered
on droppers to every individual piece of track, even pieces of under 50 mm ( 2").
The one time I didn't, because I was using up spare set-track lengths, I ended up
with an unpredictable supply to one siding end !!

Soldering is quite easy, O.K it may take a few trial runs, but it's well worth cracking
the process. Although I can't recommend because of suspect quality I use a pencil
point soldering iron bough from a market stall 10 or more years ago and the pencil
point allows you to get down between sleepers without much in the way of heat
damage. The basic thing is to allow the soldering iron to get fully heated up, abrade
the under rail spot you want to solder to, using a fine file, or wet-n-dry paper.
'Tin' the wire end, 'Tin' a spot under the rail, then rest together and add heat, it
should only be a second or two before the two 'tinned' parts melt together.

Here you can't see any heat damage, just the rough edges where I used a saw to remove
the web underneath the sleepers. Here ready for attaching a tinned wire end.



Hope that may be of some help.

Geoff T.

[Mountain]

I loved the older Gaugemaster controllers with the big knobs. My hands are large so I never really got on with their more modern controllers unless they are of a single knob type, as the knobs are just a little too close together for larger hands. Not as bad to use as Hornby 1990's controllers though the modern Hornby equivalent in trainsets looks as if it should be nice to use (Silver one with a red knob) but due to its safety devices it is one of the most awful controllers I have ever used in my life, and I am not kidding!! Coupled onto this and the transformers protective plasticated sleeve was so rigid that the cable coming out of it soon split and exposed its copper wires so that they could touch each other. While this is low voltage, it could easily blow the wall mounted transformer if it did not have an internal fuse (Most wall mounted transformers do not). So what "Looks" like a good design seems to me as it is unsafe and is also so horrible to use due to not being able to change direction unless the controller position is forced into the off position using some hand help force to do so before it will let one change direction on its direction switch at all. No audible or visual warning that its overload cut out has tripped, and one has to switch off the transformer by the mains and wait between 30 seconds and a minute and a half for it to reset which is absolutely frustrating when trying to work out if ones loco works... No visual power on indication to let you know when it is working.... I have never come across such an awkward horrible DC controller EVER to use, and I am pretty forgiving!

But Gaugemaster are ok. Nice enough to use, though the older larger knob versions one could buy in the 1980's were so much nicer to use as I bought them in panel mounted form.

These are the things I would like best to use in a controller.

About an amp and a half output so it does not lack power if running some older locos from the likes of Triang, Wrenn and Hornby Dublo.

I have found a single knob design with a centre off position to be the easiest controller to use. Failing that, a single knob design with a nice quality metal toggle switch to change direction. They don't cost a lot to buy and make ones ergonomic controller experience a whole lot nicer than the cheap plasticated feel of a budget slide switch. The difference between the two on the manufacturing side of it is less than £1, but the users experience when controlling trains is priceless! But NOTHING beats a good quality single knob centre off (In the up position) for shunting.


I want to see a visual indication of power so one can tell the controller is working.

I want to see a visual indication if the overload cut out has tripped.

[Bigmet]

Excellent! Keep asking questions they arise.