Okay what's your point?

[potatan]

I've started gluing track down, with drilled holes to get the dropper leads from each piece down under the baseboard. I've done one end of my loop but have stopped there because I need to further understand points, electrics and mechanics, before I proceed.

I've done a bit of reading but it seems incredibly complicated in terms of the need for accuracy, the different methods of attaching the point motors, the different motors themselves e.g. Seep, Peco, plus the electrical work involved.

I found this comment for instance on "another forum" which just reads to me like witchcraft, and he's indicated this is a KISS approach:

Basically, a plate of thick plastikard has the SEEP bolted to it. The drive pin of the motor actuates a copperclad sleeper strip which acts as a new tiebar. One end of this has a brass wire soldered into it, acting as a drive pin for the Peco tiebar (middle hole). The other end of the copperclad acts against a proper microswitch (ebay) which is also bolted to the baseplate.

The assy can be mounted under the board, easier to poke the brass wire through the hole in the point when it is at the end of the tiebar. I do have a couple of very simple jigs to align it but rarely use them (made from a coffee stirrer). All wiring (6 wires are pre-soldered, and these "droppers attch to copper nails in the underside of the baseboard. All K.I.S.S. !

To recap, I'm creating an N Gauge layout with Peco Setrack ST-5 and ST-6 turnouts mounted on a 9mm ply frame with 2mm cork underlay. I have one (so far) Peco PL-10E motor with the long arm, along with a PL9 mounting plate. All the track will be DCC powered and I probably won't be using the DCC controller for the points as it sounds tedious.

I'm tempted as a learning exercise to get a bit of offcut ply and just have a go at making a point work, but while I've no huge desire to be completely spoonfed as I like to find things out for myself, please can someone point me (ha!) at a simple tutorial? Also I haven't got an offcut of ply - though give me five years and I'll probably have enough for a minor Ark.

[Bigmet]

You will find more 'my proven method for installing point motors' opinion pieces than public figures/celebrities in trouble for their tastes in bedroom antics. The second is 'fun' so that's not unexpected, whereas the first is not nearly so much; and this because UK railway modelling is still suffering from its historic belief that a hairshirt should be worn wherever possible (to prove 'something'). Thus there is no UK commercial product offering ready to lay motorised pointwork.

My top tips, learned from members of the first club I joined, in brief:
Finalise the layout track plan.
Plan the structural support so that no point motor position is fouled.
Construct layout structure.
Fit the track support ('baseboards') with registration to the support structure for all sections carrying pointwork, so that these may be lifted off.
Transfer track plan to the track supports.
Lay the pointwork only, held down temporarily.
Lift out the track supports with points on it and transfer to the work bench.
Sit down and fit, test, wire up, test again, the point motors to the points while seated and enjoying easy access to both sides of the track support.
Bury anyone who wants to make random changes after step 1 is finalised under the clubhouse floorboards.

[centenary]

I agree with Bigmet: plan your layout and your baseboard at the same time.

The worst thing you can do is build both in glorious isolation because you will find that awkward to get to point motor needs to be positioned right where that cross batten you fitted is!

Id suggest either using servos or stall motors such as DCC Concepts IP Analogs \ Digital, Tortoise or MTB10s. Yes, the IPs and Tortoise are a bit expensive but both have 2 switches in them and do frog switching without any extra outlay. You also dont need to cut huge holes in your baseboards.

[potatan]

My top tips, learned from members of the first club I joined, in brief:
Finalise the layout track plan.
Plan the structural support so that no point motor position is fouled.
Construct layout structure.

Thanks - so far so good, I've completed the plans, built the baseboard, ply-wooded the top, ensuring no fouls for the point locations or, incidentally, the wire droppers, and have glued the first section of dropper-wired track down up to the first two sets of points

Fit the track support ('baseboards') with registration to the support structure for all sections carrying pointwork, so that these may be lifted off.
Transfer track plan to the track supports.
Lay the pointwork only, held down temporarily.
Lift out the track supports with points on it and transfer to the work bench.
Sit down and fit, test, wire up, test again, the point motors to the points while seated and enjoying easy access to both sides of the track support.
Bury anyone who wants to make random changes after step 1 is finalised under the clubhouse floorboards.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - but it sounds like I may be too late for this approach? I think you're describing some sort of detachable point "plates" that can be worked on and setup to be working completely independently of the rest of the baseboard, then plonked in when they are faultless in operation.

My design (just the track and woodwork layers). Green bits of track are glued down now:

Story so far:

[potatan]

Id suggest either using servos or stall motors such as DCC Concepts IP Analogs \ Digital, Tortoise or MTB10s. Yes, the IPs and Tortoise are a bit expensive but both have 2 switches in them and do frog switching without any extra outlay. You also dont need to cut huge holes in your baseboards.

What is the advantage of 2 switches? Does it reduce cost or complexity somehow?

Thanks for the suggestions. I did see someone on Youtube using Tortoise motors but they looked to me the size of a, well, tortoise so I kind of set that thought aside. Maybe I'll dig a bit deeper

[potatan]

Id suggest either using servos or stall motors such as DCC Concepts IP Analogs \ Digital, Tortoise or MTB10s. Yes, the IPs and Tortoise are a bit expensive but both have 2 switches in them and do frog switching without any extra outlay. You also dont need to cut huge holes in your baseboards.

Just counted - I have 10 turnouts, and RoS do a set of 12 DCC kit that looks like it might include everything I need for £250
https://railsofsheffield.com/products/c ... ntrol-pack

Just gotta figure out how to add this to my already laid out layout if I go down that route

[Bigmet]

I'm not sure what you mean by this - but it sounds like I may be too late for this approach? I think you're describing some sort of detachable point "plates" that can be worked on and setup to be working completely independently of the rest of the baseboard, then plonked in when they are faultless in operation...

Exactly, the 'baseboard' areas carrying points are not permanently fixed in place until the points are fully motorised, wired and tested, so that all this work can be done off the layout on a workbench. This provides easy access to both sides of the baseboard while the work is done, none of that crawling underneath the layout, and solder rain...

There's a related tip if planning to paint the rail sides in 'filth and rust': after soldering on any power feeds, points are then best painted before they are fixed down, much easier to get the paint where it needs to go when you can approach from any angle, and then to test that everything is functional, and remove any paint from where it shouldn't be...

[potatan]

Exactly, the 'baseboard' areas carrying points are not permanently fixed in place until the points are fully motorised, wired and tested, so that all this work can be done off the layout on a workbench. This provides easy access to both sides of the baseboard while the work is done, none of that crawling underneath the layout, and solder rain...

If only I'd heard this tip about 2 months ago
Although my baseboard is currently capable of being propped up vertically, or flipped completely as there is no scenery or any other sticky-uppy bits at the moment, so this may not be a huge issue just yet

A workaround that occurred to me was to just plough on with getting all the track laid and glued while I investigate the points. At the very least I'll be able to iron out any track and dropper-wiring problems while still playing with trains albeit with manual switching of points. Then when I've mastered the art of digital point controls in an off-location testbed, I can go back to the layout and reappraise the situation.

Currently I'm still pretty much learning the ins and outs of soldering (advanced apprentice level), copydex application (1st year journeyman) and tool-organisation (ninja master).

[centenary]

Id suggest either using servos or stall motors such as DCC Concepts IP Analogs \ Digital, Tortoise or MTB10s. Yes, the IPs and Tortoise are a bit expensive but both have 2 switches in them and do frog switching without any extra outlay. You also dont need to cut huge holes in your baseboards.

What is the advantage of 2 switches? Does it reduce cost or complexity somehow?

Thanks for the suggestions. I did see someone on Youtube using Tortoise motors but they looked to me the size of a, well, tortoise so I kind of set that thought aside. Maybe I'll dig a bit deeper

The advantage of 2 switches is you can control frog polarity with one and control signals or other accessory with the other. Also, if using one switch for frog polarity and the other is spare, should a faullt develop with the current frog polarity switch, you can just reposition the wires into the unused one negating the need for a new point motor.

Tortoise is a bigger device than the DCC Concepts IP Analog and Digitals. TBH, Id recommend the DCC Concepts version. The Tortoise version of the IP Digital is called a Smail, I believe.

[aleopardstail]

I've started gluing track down, with drilled holes to get the dropper leads from each piece down under the baseboard. I've done one end of my loop but have stopped there because I need to further understand points, electrics and mechanics, before I proceed.

I've done a bit of reading but it seems incredibly complicated in terms of the need for accuracy, the different methods of attaching the point motors, the different motors themselves e.g. Seep, Peco, plus the electrical work involved.

I found this comment for instance on "another forum" which just reads to me like witchcraft, and he's indicated this is a KISS approach:

Basically, a plate of thick plastikard has the SEEP bolted to it. The drive pin of the motor actuates a copperclad sleeper strip which acts as a new tiebar. One end of this has a brass wire soldered into it, acting as a drive pin for the Peco tiebar (middle hole). The other end of the copperclad acts against a proper microswitch (ebay) which is also bolted to the baseplate.

The assy can be mounted under the board, easier to poke the brass wire through the hole in the point when it is at the end of the tiebar. I do have a couple of very simple jigs to align it but rarely use them (made from a coffee stirrer). All wiring (6 wires are pre-soldered, and these "droppers attch to copper nails in the underside of the baseboard. All K.I.S.S. !

To recap, I'm creating an N Gauge layout with Peco Setrack ST-5 and ST-6 turnouts mounted on a 9mm ply frame with 2mm cork underlay. I have one (so far) Peco PL-10E motor with the long arm, along with a PL9 mounting plate. All the track will be DCC powered and I probably won't be using the DCC controller for the points as it sounds tedious.

I'm tempted as a learning exercise to get a bit of offcut ply and just have a go at making a point work, but while I've no huge desire to be completely spoonfed as I like to find things out for myself, please can someone point me (ha!) at a simple tutorial? Also I haven't got an offcut of ply - though give me five years and I'll probably have enough for a minor Ark.

if you use the PECO point motors and the adaptor bases you could get their switches, however with set track points there is nothing electrical to "switch" so you can leave them off for now (they fit on top of the point motor and can be added later, just don't shorten the pin that moves the actual points.

solonoid motors drive well with a technique called "probe and stud" which is comically simple when you look at it, and DCC for running makes wiring easier as its all really one track feed back to the controller.

as for making points, its actually easier than it appears, you will need proper gauges though as accuracy matters, also some good files. SMP used to do kits, in OO, that had all the bits except the soldering iron - if you can find one it could be worth getting to practice with

[potatan]

Can someone find any holes in my thinking here, as I continue laying out the track. I'd rather deal with one set of issues at a time, so getting the track all glued down and trains running seems like a reasonable thing to get completed before moving on to the complexities of point power supplies, logic, and physical fitment. Particularly as I've missed the boat in terms of getting the points all wired and working off-layout before slotting them into place permanently.

Remember this is my first ever layout so everything is a brand new learning exercise.

For N Gauge setrack points the throw of the tiebar from one position to the other is about 3mm. So my idea is as follows:

1. Carry on sticking down the cork and track, including the Setrack point pieces (ST-5 and ST-6).
2. When gluing an ST point down, make sure I have a 5 or 6mm hole directly under the mid point of the tiebar hole (either left or right of the track depending on the location. Under oneof the yellow circles in the photo
3. Complete the track, all wired and DCC'ed for running and get a bit of train time in to chcek it all works at this stage using magic-hand-in-the-sky point changes
4. Save up about £300
5. Buy and then retrofit the DCC Concept IP digital point motors (or equivalent) to each turnout using the holes made at (2)
6. Wire up all the points and configure using whatever point controller mechanism I've arrived at by then

Anything I've missed?

[potatan]

The advantage of 2 switches is you can control frog polarity with one and control signals or other accessory with the other. Also, if using one switch for frog polarity and the other is spare, should a faullt develop with the current frog polarity switch, you can just reposition the wires into the unused one negating the need for a new point motor.

Tortoise is a bigger device than the DCC Concepts IP Analog and Digitals. TBH, Id recommend the DCC Concepts version. The Tortoise version of the IP Digital is called a Smail, I believe.

Thanks, good to know. Though I believe for my simple layout using PECO ST-5 / 6 Setrack points the frog polarity is not an issue to worry about at this stage? I think thay are insulfrog by design

[aleopardstail]

you will want a larger hole for the slow acting motors, I used 8mm with servos, basically the wire that sticks up bends so needs a bit of space.

what I did was drill the hole, then before the point is stuck down cut a bit of plastic about 15mm square, with a 4mm x 1mm slot (very thin clear plastic is idea, blister pack stuff). that covers the hole except the bit directly under the tie bar hole.

as for retrofitting the motors later, go for it, keep in mind the size of them though, so points on adjacent tracks may need planning, should be able to find the size footprint the motors have, print a few templates and use them

and yes they are insufrog by design, no frog wiring needed at all. for DCC I would say make sure the sidings have a feed, ideally you don't want the rails switching power of you get issues with dirt

[potatan]

you will want a larger hole for the slow acting motors, I used 8mm with servos, basically the wire that sticks up bends so needs a bit of space.

Noted

what I did was drill the hole, then before the point is stuck down cut a bit of plastic about 15mm square, with a 4mm x 1mm slot (very thin clear plastic is idea, blister pack stuff). that covers the hole except the bit directly under the tie bar hole.

What does this achieve? Is it to stop ballast/glue going down the holes? Does it stay in place once the point servo is fitted for some reason?

as for retrofitting the motors later, go for it, keep in mind the size of them though, so points on adjacent tracks may need planning, should be able to find the size footprint the motors have, print a few templates and use them

Yep I might have to have them on opposite sides of the track where I have two turnouts going into the shunting sidings. Will plan carefully

for DCC I would say make sure the sidings have a feed, ideally you don't want the rails switching power of you get issues with dirt

I'm in the process of soldering droppers to every piece of track apart from the points. As much for a soldering practice exercise as anything else, but if it helps prevent issues down the line I'll take it

Thanks

[aleopardstail]

the plastic bit is partly to stop ballast etc going down the hole, if you paint it grey and the trackbed the same before sticking stuff down (recommended to stick grey emulsion over the lot) its more a cosmetic thing with a larger hole. it also means the holes exact location matters a bit less.

on feeds, its a pity the N gauge points lack the space to add feeds the way the OO ones have, I was looking at trying to add feeds to the frog rails but this was after the track was down and painted when the issues started