Improving loco running

[MarkOg]

Folks

I have an aged 0-4-0ST - Hornby made in China - the blue CR livery loco, which I am using to test all my track and electro-frog points during the course of building my layout. The theory being that if that loco runs smoothly on all track, then so will everything else. All track is DCC, and the 0-4-0 is fitted with a TCS decoder which is probably about 10 years old. The loco runs remarkably well, especially since I have activated CV 182 which means the loco runs very smoothly all over the speed range for such a relatively numb beast. One small complaint. It does take a while to move on low speed setting 1 or 2, as if the imaginary loco crew are finishing their cigarettes or something! I have adjusted CV2 to the lowest setting so it does actually move on speed setting 1, but sometimes it refuses to move at all. To this end I have adjusted kick start CV65, but it doesn't seem to make much difference. Any clues how I can avoid the loco intermittently stalling please? I have tried dither - CV56 and 57- but this would seem to deactivate CV182 and as such it runs nowhere near as well at speed and stutters significantly more.

[Bigmet]

.... It does take a while to move on low speed setting 1 or 2, as if the imaginary loco crew are finishing their cigarettes or something! I have adjusted CV2 to the lowest setting so it does actually move on speed setting 1, but sometimes it refuses to move at all. To this end I have adjusted kick start CV65, but it doesn't seem to make much difference. Any clues how I can avoid the loco intermittently stalling please? I have tried dither - CV56 and 57- but this would seem to deactivate CV182 and as such it runs nowhere near as well at speed and stutters significantly more.

A current Lenz or Zimo decoder will solve your problem, TCS are well behind the curve in control refinement in my experience.

[Dad-1]

As you expected the Hornby 0-4-0's are not exactly electrifying runners.
I would expect a TCS decoder to offer better potential running than the
CR Pug - I'd suggest you're expecting a decoder to turn a pigs ear into a
silk purse. My Hornby blue Class 06 runs well enough with a basic Hornby
decoder where all you have to adjust is inertia, direction of travel and
address. In other words I just wire in and play, however other 0-4-0 chassis
I have don't run as well, including a green 06 !!

The use of live frogs is the key to trouble free turnouts - EXCEPT some Scaleway
where the frogs are too deep, so any small locomotive with NO vertical free
movement in the axles will still tend to stall. We had 6 made and although the
Heljan 1361 runs fine on Peco layouts it's not happy on these fine scale points.

Keep trying !!

Geoff T

[MarkOg]

Geoff

Understood and thanks. Yes, quite right, I am not expecting the loco to move as gracefully as others in the shed. It is of course built to a cost. However, I must admit it does behave really well for what it is. I have fiddled about with the CV codes and read the TCS website, but I think I have done all I can. The CV 182 function - BEMF for 3 pole motors - is very good at smoothing things out, and I guess I could fiddle about with dither, but in so doing, I compromise the otherwise smooth running at speed.

I do indeed use live frogs on Peco 75 to prevent stalling on points. It works well.

I have Lenz in other locos. A good decoder I feel, but purchasing one for the 0-4-0 is perhaps overkill. Any recommendations for a good second-hand small cheap tank loco? - The Dapol pug has good reviews, but seems pricey. I don't mind older stuff....

[Dad-1]

Hi MarkOg,

The reason the Dapol Pug holds it's price is because it runs SO much better than any older Hornby
0-4-0. Better modern stuff costs even more, things like the Peckett W4's. Easier with Diesels like
the Ruston's and Sentinels. I have too many small locos, but that's about all I use nowadays.

The Dapol pug has the cab almost filled with the motor, so not good for adding crew. I got an old one
for £20 at an exhibition several years ago and apart from being too much trouble to add Kadees I do find
it fun to drive.

Don't get carried away asking for super slow running - Think if you were paying the crews wages, you'd want
them to work safely, but as speedily as they can.
Do you want slower than this :- My blue 06.

https://youtu.be/-tBKVc6hoiY?si=cCrdY4n3ATgipWJk

Geoff T.

[MarkOg]

Geoff

Cheers for that. I do like that Dapol pug - where to put the decoder I wonder? Your 06 speed is about fine for me, but it's not steam!

Thanks

Mark

[Dad-1]

Hi markOg,

Thought I had done a video with mine.
Note the small stall/hesitation towards the end, it was passing over an Insulated Set-track
point on the hidden loop.
So if you can find a good one at the 'right' price go for it !!
The decoder I 'think' was an ebay cheapie Lias, or something like that.

https://youtu.be/H4cindkAynE?si=izKiSR4FbGlKJnkA

Geoff T.

[Peterm]

With my Pug, I took the weight out and ditched it replacing it with lead. I left enough room on top of the lead to put a small Zimo decoder in. I also fitted a Lais stay alive and it now runs perfectly. I'm pretty sure that I would have got away without the stay alive.. belt and braces.

I'd recommend replacing that lightweight weight with lead. and of course keeping the wheels, pickups and track clean.

[Bigmet]

...I have Lenz in other locos. A good decoder I feel, but purchasing one for the 0-4-0 is perhaps overkill...

And as I learned very early in my DCC adventure, the combination of decoder and mechanism needs to be considered.

The Lenz design was clearly configured around a good HO mechanism; an efficient low current draw motor, smooth running multistage driveline with a good choice of gear ratio for the prototype's performance, reliable pick up arrangements. Not that happy on an old dog like Hornby's Caley pug (as it was over twenty years ago) but superb in the all new design OO products then emerging from China, exhibit the first Bachmann's WD 2-8-0. Refined performance from that day to this, my first two WD's are just coming up to 24 years old, good as they were on day 1.

Zimo was not at that time readily available in the UK, but a continental cousin brought some over. Now these were expensive, but they did the job, the iron control would even extract decent performance from a Hornby or Lima ringfield motor if pick up was reliable. However, the noise was still present and the need for traction tyres and the slight mechanical cogginess that sometimes was evident; all these told me to abandon all the European produced OO, and only buy the new and better from China, which ran happily on cheaper Lenz decoders.

Then, game changer! First Lenz reduced their decoder price with their 'Standard' decoder, which is on the majority of my locos, hard wired if necessary as it only comes in wired form. Lower price refined control for good mechanisms. (I only need a decoder to run the motor, no other doodads on my traction.)
Then Zimo joined the party with lower cost decoders for just a couple of quid more than Lenz Standard. Where necessary I have used these, especially valuable for coreless motors. If the Lenz will do the job that's the one I use, a two quid saving is not to be sniffed at!

Sadly, lower price Zimo decoders seem to have gone the way of all flesh since the recent component shortage. Wait and see...

[MarkOg]

After a break of some 10 years or so, I am just staggered by the current price of new model railway stuff. It always used to be expensive, but to me is now crazy. Like anything else, I understand the need to buy decent equipment but the price is somewhat prohibitive. I am always after that elusive second hand bargain. So to that effect.....

What second-hand locos do you gents recommend? Around 10 years old or so perhaps. They need to be retro-fitted with a decoder with some good details. Pre WW2 for me, so I do like the look of the Bachmann V2. I also like pre-grouping locos but not too much around it seems. Anything here you would recommend?

[Bigmet]

...What second-hand locos do you gents recommend? Around 10 years old or so perhaps. They need to be retro-fitted with a decoder with some good details. Pre WW2 for me, so I do like the look of the Bachmann V2. I also like pre-grouping locos but not too much around it seems. Anything here you would recommend?

Bachmann's V2 to start with, (and likewise the A4, B1, J39, J72, V1/V3) started out with split chassis, best avoided as the youngest will be a dozen years from manufacture and they deteriorate over time, even if never run. A4, B1, J72, V1/V3,V2, all got regular wiper pick up mechanisms, these can be identified confidently because they have DCC decoder sockets, and of these the V2 recently got an all new model, so a few of the previous V2 do show up.

Sacond hand pre-group origin locos now.
The old N2 tooled by Airfix GMR which first came out as 'Mainline' migrated via Dapol and now with Hornby. The Hornby version is best as it has Hornby's big black can motor. (The previous MW005 derived motor was fine for running performance, but sounded like a coffee grinder.) These can be got cheap, especially the versions without a DCC socket, like under £50; can use detailing work, and you need big fat crew to diguise the motor.
Oxford Rail have a newly tooled N7 and J27, and these have been offered at 'nostalgic' pricing, just under £100. I think they are good.
Hornby have managed a few smaller pre-group classes that ran on the LNER and BR, the J15 and J36 0-6-0s and J50 0-6-0T, Q6 0-8-0. It seems they over produced, and sometimes are offered cheaper as a result,
Bachmann have a bunch of good pre-group models that stayed on in service into BR, worth looking out for s/h: LNWR 0-6-2T coal tank, (looks like LNWR) G2A 0-8-0, MR 1F and 3F 0-6-0T, 3F 0-6-0, 4P 4-4-0, S&DJR 7F 2-8-0, GCR D11 4-4-0, J11 0-6-0, O4 (ROD) 2-8-0, NER J72 0-6-0T, SECR C class 0-6-0.
Relatively new, Bachmann have produced a good 0-4-4T layout in models of the MR 1F and NER G5, unlikely to appear cheap just yet, but both very good.Just keep on patiently hunting around, and reading 'bargain hunter' threads.

There's more of course, but I can only identify what I know, which reflects my own and friend's interests. The mechanisms in Bachmann's current 56xx and 57xx are good, redeployed many of these into the bodies of much more interesting classes; cannot speak to how good the bodies might be, but people always buy them so probably decent. What's undecent that I know of, 14xx, all versions are bad, avoid, avoid, avoid.

[MarkOg]

Many thanks for that and much appreciated Apart from Fleabay and Hattons where does one look these days for second-hand stuff?

[Bigmet]

Any retailers with on line sites, any model shops you can visit, online topics like this one:
viewtopic.php?t=27613
Just keep looking.

[Mountain]

Just saying that the Dapol Pug that Hornby took over is a totally different loco to the Hornby Pug. They are even a different size!

[Bufferstop]

What's undecent that I know of, 14xx, all versions are bad, avoid, avoid, avoid.

If on the other hand you desperately want a 14xx there are some things you can do to improve it.
First get a fairly recent one, avoiding the monster with the square axle slots It will have wire pickups and the small motor close to the rear axle. The major remaining problem being the traction tyres, they encourage a front to rear see-sawing action, take 'em off. Mine ran OK with the grooves in the wheels, but I always had my teeth gritted waiting for one to get caught on Peco's thin point blades. I got hold of a spare wheelset and used the tyreless wheels from that. The balance weights are wrong but you can't tell when it's running. It's never going to be good at crawling but then neither was the prototype, they were pretty nippy pulling and pushing an autocoach around, which made them ideal for branch lines which had to run some distance from the junction to the station on the main line or even carrying on to the terminus, as their large driving wheels meant they didn't hold up following main line trains.