Was I Wrong About The Hornby 9F? | Sam'sTrains Live

[Richard08]

Gotta love this guy. Hornby posted a rather sarky 'reply' to his review of their 9F, which was critical of the motor, saying the motor was all new. So he took it to bits and compared with some earlier/other motors. The same. Then he fitted a new motor and the engine was transformed. Sam's Trains 1 : 0 Hornby. I just love it when PR departments get what they deserve About 15 mins or so in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWmh4zfTH-s

[b308]

Suppose it depends on how you define "identical", he admits there are differences but say they are "identical" (surely that is a contradiction in terms!), Hornby say they are "new", well perhaps not, but they are not identical either which could indicate they've been modified and so that could be true as well dependant on how you define it.

[RAF96]

Did he read the full instructions this time before slagging the product off, then later admit he should have read them first, as he has done on other reviews.

[Richard08]

Suppose it depends on how you define "identical", he admits there are differences but say they are "identical" (surely that is a contradiction in terms!), Hornby say they are "new", well perhaps not, but they are not identical either which could indicate they've been modified and so that could be true as well dependant on how you define it.

Apart from a coupe of blobs of blue stuff, the old and 'new' motors were identical - by all measurements including resistance of the windings. That makes them identical for all practical purposes I would venture.

[Bigmet]

Did he read the full instructions this time before slagging the product off, then later admit he should have read them first, as he has done on other reviews.

We can guess the answer. But it doesn't matter, he's the customer, and the product doesn't meet the expectations of his target audience of purchasers. Doesn't matter what business you are in, these customers exist; and it's for the business to decide it is worth implementing a solution.

Regarding the motor, this affects more than just Hornby. The detailed mechanism knowledge is in China, the representative in the UK has part numbers to look at. If you are lucky the UK based person asks 'China', and quite likely gets told 'same motor', or if it's a good day, 'equivalent motor'. By dint of messing around I have some knowledge of 'same motors' with different part numbers, and 'equivalent motors' with same part numbers, and so long as they work well that's OK, but the first case doesn't help in sourcing spares in the UK, where 'different part number' = not equivalent. (I would like to take a look at the new 9F mechanism layout, but Hornby have become rather tardy in putting these in their 'filing heap' of service sheets of late, but this is no complete solution.)

Whatever, there's enough evidence from owners on show 'out there', to establish that Hornby's new 9F design is capable of running smoothly and quietly with good traction. For sure there will be duff specimens, this is low cost toy manufacture: just send it back for refund 'unfit for purpose' if you receive one such.

[Bufferstop]

Remember dimensions aren't the be all and end all of sameness, a motor to the same dimensions but having been made to much tighter tolerances could be described as a new product. It will certainly cost a bit more and will probably rely on part number (or a dab of blue paint) to distinguish itself from the earlier product.

[End2end]

By dint of messing around I have some knowledge of 'same motors' with different part numbers, and 'equivalent motors' with same part numbers

I've noticed this with Hornby. Not so much the motors, but other items. I remember from years ago say a wagon with a R-3 digit number. Now you can buy the same wagon with an R-4 digit number.
I wouldn't have a clue if the wagon has been "re-tooled" as it looks the same as it did many years ago.
It's just a pattern I seem to have picked up on.
Thanks
End2end

[Richard08]

Important to note that the same motor in another Hornby model (I forget which one - it's in the video) had exactly the same performance issues, pointing to a motor issue rather than specific engine. Hornby won't be designing any motors (these days), they will choose one that meets the design requirement (size, power, torque, no. of poles etc) from Motors-R-Us and pass that choice on to the manufacturer. They might leave the choice of actual supplier for the motor up to the manufacturer, but that's a dangerous route as they have instantly lost control of quality, so I doubt it. Lets not forget - these are not quality precision engineered components, they are cheap, basic, simple electric motors produced by the million and designed to last just longer than the warranty period. In the 9F motor case, as Sam acknowledges in the video, the motor works significantly better with a feedback controller. Could it simply be Hornby forgot to test it with a non feedback controller? Either by omission or intention, I'd hedge towards that being the case.

[Richard08]

By dint of messing around I have some knowledge of 'same motors' with different part numbers, and 'equivalent motors' with same part numbers

I've noticed this with Hornby. Not so much the motors, but other items. I remember from years ago say a wagon with a R-3 digit number. Now you can buy the same wagon with an R-4 digit number.
I wouldn't have a clue if the wagon has been "re-tooled" as it looks the same as it did many years ago.
It's just a pattern I seem to have picked up on.
Thanks
End2end

Not just Hornby - changing the livery and therefore the part number on old models and re-pricing is not uncommon, a point highlighted in some of Sam's other reviews. I think one example was a Pannier tank or something, not from Hornby, re-liveried but exactly the same as 10/20 year old version in all other respects. There was a time when new meant new, and returned to the range meant just that. I suspect marketing depts...

[Bigmet]

...the motor works significantly better with a feedback controller. Could it simply be Hornby forgot to test it with a non feedback controller? Either by omission or intention, I'd hedge towards that being the case.

On the same tack, my feeling is that the OO manufacturers are very happy with what DCC provides. I use Lenz or Zimo decoders, and these deal effectively with any OO model equipped with a reasonably efficient motor, on a multistage gear train with a ratio that produces about 120% of scale maximum speed. A smooth creep into and out of movement, and a well managed progression up to maximum speed; a performance that once required an expensive motor and gear box in a kit chassis, combined with a good feedback controller such as from Codar; (and later successors) typically after much care in build, adjustment and running time.

[Dad-1]

I wouldn't buy another Hornby 9F regardless of any Sam's Trains review.
I have 2, that I had from new, probably purchased about 2010 and now
both are unusable through defective (rotting) metal components.

One purchased from Hatton's 22/9/2010 - searched Hatton's customer
invoice section

Geoff T.

[D605Eagle]

I believe that motor has been used in just about every new hornby loco in the last few years and is prone to quality control issues. I have an S15 and a B12 with that motor and they both run perfectly, however a mate has an HST with one and it was junk from day 1. If you go on aliexpress you can buy these motors sans weights and gears for peanuts. There's absolutely no excuse at all for using motors that cost Hornby pence in a model that they want the best part of £250 for.

[RAF96]

I believe that motor has been used in just about every new hornby loco in the last few years and is prone to quality control issues. I have an S15 and a B12 with that motor and they both run perfectly, however a mate has an HST with one and it was junk from day 1. If you go on aliexpress you can buy these motors sans weights and gears for peanuts. There's absolutely no excuse at all for using motors that cost Hornby pence in a model that they want the best part of £250 for.

i bought five of these lookalike motors from AliExpress for a couple of quid the lot and they run sweet but so far of the five two have failed so just cheap junk in reality. Who knows what ends up in the models, yet I have donkeys years old 0-4-0 pocket rocket motors still going strong.
Edit - bring back the old Monogram slot car motors that could be dismantled and new parts fitted as required, screwed assembly, serviceable brush gear, oilite bearings, etc.

[Alexander Court]

I have the S15 (is that the goods 4-6-0?) That's in BR black, the motor in it is a bit...odd. Some days it works, for a bit, a lot of the time its starts running and then gets worse and worse, til it slows to a crawl.
My Hornby Centenary terrier also died dead, I have removed the motor, awaiting replacement still after over a year due to not being able to get ahold of one when I have the money.
My 14xx Railroad died dead, one of those sticky type 7s in that I think, basically looked like the carbon brush had come off and stuck to the commutator and caught fire/smouldered away.
But many other older models are still running fine, although it'd have been nice to be able to give my T&F Hornby Stepney a new set of wheels, but can't get ahold of new ones with correct wheel colours now.
Guess sometimes you get lucky and you get a perfect runner and sometimes you get something that's rotten.
Alex.

[Bigmet]

I have the S15 (is that the goods 4-6-0?) That's in BR black, the motor in it is a bit...odd. Some days it works, for a bit, a lot of the time its starts running and then gets worse and worse, til it slows to a crawl...

Does the motor or top end of the driveline become hot as it slows? Need to run the model with the loco body off to investigate. These small electrical motors have a very small power output, and one dry binding bearing, either on the motor or in the drive line, is enough to slow them to a crawl. The fact that it still runs 'next time' suggests that the brushes and commutator, windings and magnet in the motor are all OK, so its worth a look.