Wiring expertise required

[Suzie]

Try this:

middyoocracked feeds.jpg (59.7 KiB) Viewed 1958 times

Small blue lines show where the insulated joiners should go, and coloured triangles are the section feeds (matching the colours you have shown above, some sections have more than one feed point). Black triangles are the common return.

I cannot imagine that there will be many locos on the layout, so it would not be too expensive to make it DCC and save a lot of wiring!

[barney121e]

Try this:

middyoocracked feeds.jpg

Small blue lines show where the insulated joiners should go, and coloured triangles are the section feeds (matching the colours you have shown above, some sections have more than one feed point). Black triangles are the common return.

I cannot imagine that there will be many locos on the layout, so it would not be too expensive to make it DCC and save a lot of wiring!

Trying to keep things simple. Have marked on plan below where i think plastic rail joiners should go and the power would go. Apartt from the bottom right single line, would this power both tracks depending on which way the points are set?

[barney121e]

Also forgot to ask, what size wire do i need?

[Suzie]

Trying to keep things simple. Have marked on plan below where i think plastic rail joiners should go and the power would go. Apart from the bottom right single line, would this power both tracks depending on which way the points are set?

middyoocrackedelec2.jpg

Well Barney, you don't need all the insulated joiners because most of them will result in dead sidings, and you will need a few more feeds to avoid having dead sections.

You really need to decide how you want to operate the layout - as you originally specified, or very simply.

7/02 wire will be OK for all the feeds.

[barney121e]

Trying to keep things simple. Have marked on plan below where i think plastic rail joiners should go and the power would go. Apart from the bottom right single line, would this power both tracks depending on which way the points are set?

middyoocrackedelec2.jpg

Well Barney, you don't need all the insulated joiners because most of them will result in dead sidings, and you will need a few more feeds to avoid having dead sections.

You really need to decide how you want to operate the layout - as you originally specified, or very simply.

7/02 wire will be OK for all the feeds.

Ok, maybe i am overthinking it. Thought that a layout could only be wired one way. Obviously not.

Can i ask a really stupid question. With insulfrog points, do i need to insulate the point in any way? I know with electrofrog one's you do, but have never used insulfrog ones. I believe if they are facing each other you do, but what if there is a piece of track between them?

[Flashbang]

Hi
No IRJs are need on Insulated frog points except where a pair of points connect together two controllers. e.g. On a crossover pair of points linking loop to loop/controller to controller, then one method usually used is to fit two IRJs in place of the metal joiners in the crossover rails. So on your plan only two IRJs are needed in the cross-over rails.

To Note: With Insulated frog points (except the Peco Streamline Double and Single Slip) the unset direction is electrical dead.

[barney121e]

Hi
No IRJs are need on Insulated frog points except where a pair of points connect together two controllers. e.g. On a crossover pair of points linking loop to loop/controller to controller, then one method usually used is to fit two IRJs in place of the metal joiners in the crossover rails. So on your plan only two IRJs are needed in the cross-over rails.

To Note: With Insulated frog points (except the Peco Streamline Double and Single Slip) the unset direction is electrical dead.

What if i am only using technically 1 controller? I have a gauge master Q which has one supply but can control 4 tracks.

[Flashbang]

The GM Q DC controller uses two separate secondary double wound transformers inside. So Track outputs T1 & T2 are on Transformer 1 and the other two outputs (T3 & T4) are on Transformer 2. All these outputs are isolated from each other.
It is only the uncontrolled outputs (DC and AC) that share the same transformer windings.
So Tk1, Tk2, Tk3 and Tk4 track outputs are all electrically separate. They are really totally separate DC controllers.

[barney121e]

The GM Q DC controller uses two separate secondary double wound transformers inside. So Track outputs T1 & T2 are on Transformer 1 and the other two outputs (T3 & T4) are on Transformer 2. All these outputs are isolated from each other.
It is only the uncontrolled outputs (DC and AC) that share the same transformer windings.
So Tk1, Tk2, Tk3 and Tk4 track outputs are all electrically separate. They are like totally separate DC controllers.

So am i ok using just insulated rail joiners on crossover?

[Flashbang]

Yes Only fit them on the two rails of the cross-over points that link loop 1 to loop 2.

[Suzie]

Can I ask a really stupid question. With Insulfrog points, do I need to insulate the point in any way? I know with Electrofrog one's you do, but have never used Insulfrog ones. I believe if they are facing each other you do, but what if there is a piece of track between them?

Not a stupid question(s)

In your case using Insulfrog points you don't. There are some scenarios where you need them, but not for your layout, and especially not where there are crossovers between different zones where you may want to run trains.

Where you do need the insulated joiners is where you need to prevent a back feed from linking two feeds together.

Again, how do you want to operate the layout? and do you want to use live frog or dead frog?

These all have a bearing an how you wire the layout. At the end of the day there is nothing fundamentally difficult in doing the wiring - like eating an elephant it can be done by anyone if you break it down in to bite size chunks.

Live frog or dead frog (or Unifrog even) is a question that has a very big answer, and has been discussed to death. You really should only be considering dead frogs if you have a very good reason to, they are not very good and reliability will be an issue if you are relying on them for power routing.

If you want simple wiring, and that may be an issue for you, seriously consider using DCC - it really is a lot simpler to wire a DCC layout properly than it is to wire a DC layout properly, and the cost is usually not a lot different when you take the cost of the extra wiring required for DC properly in to account. Some times life is too short. To get reliability even remotely approaching the performance you will get with DCC on a DC layout does require a lot of wiring, and you still don't have a lot of the nice features.

[barney121e]

Can I ask a really stupid question. With Insulfrog points, do I need to insulate the point in any way? I know with Electrofrog one's you do, but have never used Insulfrog ones. I believe if they are facing each other you do, but what if there is a piece of track between them?

Not a stupid question(s)

In your case using Insulfrog points you don't. There are some scenarios where you need them, but not for your layout, and especially not where there are crossovers between different zones where you may want to run trains.

Where you do need the insulated joiners is where you need to prevent a back feed from linking two feeds together.

Again, how do you want to operate the layout? and do you want to use live frog or dead frog?

These all have a bearing an how you wire the layout. At the end of the day there is nothing fundamentally difficult in doing the wiring - like eating an elephant it can be done by anyone if you break it down in to bite size chunks.

Live frog or dead frog (or Unifrog even) is a question that has a very big answer, and has been discussed to death. You really should only be considering dead frogs if you have a very good reason to, they are not very good and reliability will be an issue if you are relying on them for power routing.

If you want simple wiring, and that may be an issue for you, seriously consider using DCC - it really is a lot simpler to wire a DCC layout properly than it is to wire a DC layout properly, and the cost is usually not a lot different when you take the cost of the extra wiring required for DC properly in to account. Some times life is too short. To get reliability even remotely approaching the performance you will get with DCC on a DC layout does require a lot of wiring, and you still don't have a lot of the nice features.

Hi

Ok, what i see is a train running on the inside track. A train arriving on the outer track, stops, a train arrives on the middle track, outer track train goes eventually middle track train goes. In bottom right siding, a loco repaired in the the loco shed, eventually returns to track. Thats how i see running it.

As for DCC i have a few questions.
1. Is it possible to convert non DCC trains yourself or is it better sending away?
2. With the track having power feeds all over, how does this affect the insulfrog points? Do they need plastic rail joiners anywhere?
3. For DCC ready locos, is it just a matter of plugging in the dcc decoder?


Should mention my other half suggested i have a think about DCC as might get to do a larger layout in the future and maybe i should explore DCC now.

Cheers.

[barney121e]

So decide dto do a little test, to help me understand things a little better. So just set up the outer track and ran a train on the middle track, then switched points to the outside track. And finally ran train into the siding at bottom right, and switched point and train wouldn't move. So that all seems to work with just power at one power connection. So next step is to check inner line, and then switch train from inner track to middle track..

[Suzie]

To answer the DCC questions:-
1. For the most part nowadays it is just a matter of taking off the body, plugging in a decoder, and refitting the body. Manufacturers unfortunately are rather slow in adopting the better sockets that make selecting a decoder easy (PluX or Next-18), so you will often have to make sure that you get a decoder that will fit in to the available space if there is an older socket or no socket at all. If in doubt get the retailer to fit the appropriate Zimo decoder for you if buying a loco that is not DCC fitted.

2. If using Insulfrog points for DCC they have to be wired the same as live frog (insulated joiners on the frog rails). They are not suitable for DCC use, you should use live frog points such as Electrofrog or Unifrog.

3. See answer 1! If the fitted socket is one of the types that has a defined decoder space (PluX or Next-18) then yes you can just plug a decoder in. If it is one of the older sockets you need to know how much space there is and choose a decoder that will fit.

It is never too early to start DCC.

From your description it sounds like you will only have two trains running, and three total, so for DC you probably don't need the full cab control that would be needed for your original diagram with two controllers and SPDT centre off switches to supply each of the feeds from the control panel. Power routing the DC would entail a lot more wiring around most of the points so that is why most people would look to using cab control to keep the wiring simple and straightforward even though it would be harder to operate a small layout that way.

If you fancy having a go with power routing it is possible, but you will need double pole switches such as PL15 on each of the points (one pole for the frog and one pole for the power routing) unless you are using Insulfrogs - but I am sure that now you know better than doing that.

[barney121e]

So i have power on the inner circuit and power on the outer circuit. Where the two cross, i have put insulated joiners between the points. I am sure its a simple problem, but i cant get my train to cross from in to out or out to in. Have set both controllers at same percentage but no luck. Any ideas?