Electric trains running without overhead power

[Mountain]

I was wondering why they did not introduce a failsafe elwment where if drivers made an error of judgement, the train would come to a halt rather than going padt that and causing more serious damage to pantographs and overhead gantries. After all, we have systems such as dead mans brake, EWS and TPWS in use. Surprized nothing similar kicks in to prevent damage if drivers get it wrong in these situations.

[Flashbang]

It did, It was called Saltwood Tunnel Portal or the signal gantry just before the tunnel .. Ha ha.
There are (or were) lineside signs advising the driver to lower Panto and shoes, but for whatever unknown reason, I know of three occasions where inward train pantographs were forcibly detached from Eurostar trains roofs! Oh Monsieur!

[Bufferstop]

Somewhere in amongst the dross on You Tube there's a vid of an Aussie electric running on OHL through the country side. Now being Oz land 16ft is nowhere near enough clearance for a level crossing so there's a break in the catenary for every crossing. The train they showed was probably doing 60-70mph dropping and raising the pan every minute or so without slowing. It's not beyond the wit of man, or Network Rail, to arrange that the pan drops when there's no power received. The old Crewe to Stafford EMUs dropped their pan at section breaks even down at 15-20mph, made a hell of a row if you were seated right underneath it.

[Bufferstop]

It did, It was called Saltwood Tunnel Portal

Sounds like the 11'8" Bridge aka the Canopener
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXF7Hx4VHXU

[Mountain]

Somewhere in amongst the dross on You Tube there's a vid of an Aussie electric running on OHL through the country side. Now being Oz land 16ft is nowhere near enough clearance for a level crossing so there's a break in the catenary for every crossing. The train they showed was probably doing 60-70mph dropping and raising the pan every minute or so without slowing. It's not beyond the wit of man, or Network Rail, to arrange that the pan drops when there's no power received. The old Crewe to Stafford EMUs dropped their pan at section breaks even down at 15-20mph, made a hell of a row if you were seated right underneath it.

A driver (Retired) I know told me when I worked with him that he was once driving an overhead electric loco on a service and on a certain stretch going over a marsh somewhere in England (Not sure where as is outside my area) he said that he lost all power and the train came to a complete halt. He got out to do basic checks before he reported what he assumed was a power out situation and he saw there was a good four or five feet between the top of his raised pantograph and the wire and masts above it. The pantograph was up in its max position and no way could it reach that high. No visible dips in the track, but what had happened was that the track level had slowly sunk due to the marshy conditions but the cantery masts remained at their normal level.

Can't remember if it was him or someone else told me that their pantagraph had somehow become damaged and snagged on the wire and while he had power so he had not noticed but he brought down the wire for some 17 miles behind him. He can't have been popular that day!

Another driver I worked with used to be in the army and he said in the winter in the early 1980's when Wales had deep snow, he was sent with a large snow ploughing machine to clear the M4, and he assumed there was something stuck on one of the machines big tyres, as he kept feeling a bump at perfectly rhythmic intervals... But he carried on as he could not see anything so thought it all ok.
He did a good 30 miles that day of snow clearing which was quite something. What he did not know until the snow thawed that he had taken out miles of cats eyes. He didn't know as he couldn't see them.

[Bufferstop]

Walking into New Street one evening it seemed unusually quiet, you could even hear what was being said on the PA. There were two EMUs and two DMUs on platform 7. The first EMU was minus pantograph. The signals were out, but came back on after a few minutes. It was pretty much deadlocked with everything that could move was blocked in by electrics that couldn't move. After a lot of walking back and forth and shouting into walkie talkies the orange jackets started asking people to move from the EMUs to the DMUs. Once they had enough weight in the DMUs engines were started and with a lot of whistling and revving of engines the whole cavalcade at platform 7 staggered forward into the tunnel. When it was out into the open it came to a halt, waited a few minutes the was off again. Passing Soho depot there were the EMUs in the entry line. The overloaded DMUs had pushed them out onto the powered line and the one with its pan in action had taken them back to the depot. When we arrived at Smethwick Rolfe Street the ticket collector was doing his nut. No trains for an hour then all the passengers he'd been waiting for arrived at once. I found out later it was one of the two EMUs that had taken out all of the power, but no one could get in to fix the damage until it had been removed, fortunately two DMUs withe twice their normal load could push two empty EMUs half a mile to find some power!

[SRman]

Somewhere in amongst the dross on You Tube there's a vid of an Aussie electric running on OHL through the country side. Now being Oz land 16ft is nowhere near enough clearance for a level crossing so there's a break in the catenary for every crossing. The train they showed was probably doing 60-70mph dropping and raising the pan every minute or so without slowing. It's not beyond the wit of man, or Network Rail, to arrange that the pan drops when there's no power received. The old Crewe to Stafford EMUs dropped their pan at section breaks even down at 15-20mph, made a hell of a row if you were seated right underneath it.

There is footage on YouTube of a mineral line in Queensland where the pantos reach full height as the wires rise, then there is a break in the wires to allow the massive mining trucks (lorries) to cross without any danger from 25kV AC zapping them. The locos coast through, but bear in mind there are several locos at the front and several more half-way along the trains, which are measured in kilometres. They would be doing an absolute maximum of 80 kph (50 mph).

Are you sure the pantographs were being dropped on those old Crewe - Stafford EMUs? More likely you were hearing the air-blast circuit-breakers kicking in for the neutral sections.

I was once on board a Queensland Railways EMU, at a time when only the first four units had entered service and only one route line was electrified. For peak hour use, two 3-car units were joined to make a 6-car train, meaning there were only two 6-car trains in service, and I was on one of them. We got routed over the only unwired crossover out of Roma Street heading west, ripping off the pantographs on both units and pulling down the overhead on both parallel tracks as far as the first station, Milton. That was the end of that service for that day. there was lots of yelling going on in the cab and on their radio! Shortly after we came to a halt, the other 6-car unit pulled into Milton from the west and had to terminate there. Fortunately, the other two tracks on the four track section were unaffected, so all diesel-hauled trains were sent down the main lines, while the EMUs blocked the suburban lines.

[Bufferstop]

Are you sure the pantographs were being dropped on those old Crewe - Stafford EMUs? More likely you were hearing the air-blast circuit-breakers kicking in for the neutral sections

Couuld have been, but there was an exceedingly smooth transition across the insulating bits. What are they made from today? A guy I knew from the GEC test labs reckoned the ones they had for evaluation were made from Bamboo. They had the glass insulator strings from the National Grid on test as well. Funny thing was he got me to help him to wire up his point work.

[luckymucklebackit]

One option is to make them a prototype for other propulsion.

https://youtu.be/5Gqf_Nx8AW8

Yep, a class 314 converted as a Hydrogen propulsion prototype.

Jim

[railsquid]

Bugger! Oh well I suppose I could drag a 86 behind a 50. Some sort of issue at B'ham new street

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me that's never happened and why. I welcome it if so.

It's within the realms of possibility given both classes intersected there, though I can't recall seeing anything other than 47s dragging electric locos (over non-electrified routes due to scheduled maintenance).

Well thanks for all the reply's. Theoretically I'd be talking about electric on the line south of Birmingham down to the west country.

Bit of a tall order then - how about the loco being taken to a depot open day somewhere in that direction? I'm sure that kind of thing must have happened somewhere at some time, I'm constantly surprised by how much proof of "unprototypical" situations the internet can dig up.

[Mountain]

Some modern loco classes are made as electrics with batteries so are electric hybrids so they can travel beyond their pantograph system for completing train journeys further down the line. Several days ago I saw one of the new First Great Western units pass near Kidwelly with its pantograph naturally down as there is no overhead electric for miles. Just how far they go on their batteries I do not know as I don't know a lot about them except for the basic theory in how I was told they worked. Interesting though because as long as one has enough milage in the batteries to complete the longest trips and then some (Just incase something happens as things do!), then one will be ok. I do not know how far west they electrified but I did hear they got to Cardiff which was quite an achievement especially going under the Severn Tunnel!
I was actually trained in overhead and 3rd rail safety (And had Severn Tunnel training though I probably forgot most of my training by now as never actually worked overhead, 3rd rail or through the Severn Tunnel, apart from in training) working the one train (Class 37 with four Mk2's through the tunnel ) because half the training class I was with were working in areas that had them. My area had none of these back then, but we still had to know the basics.

[stuartp]

Leaving aside Rule 1and hypothetical hybrid trains, deiseks were used to drag dead electrics on the WCML either during power outages or when the OLE was turned off for maintenance. There's no reason why the couldn't also be used to drag an electric round a non-electrified diversionary route, goods avoiding line etc. On the WCMLthe usual emergency traction for this sort of thing was usually a 47 or pairs of 25s.

Later the 57s were developed to drag Pendelinos etc where the last part of a route was not yet electrified, North Wales Coast etc, before the true hybrids, 80x etc came along.

The APT is more of a problem as it's not just a case of coupling the 50 on the front, the nosecone has to be raised first and I don't know if the Hornby APT does that without help from a razor saw. At least the APT had a full set of dangly bits under the nosecone, the HSTs did not and the emergency coupling was an awkward and heavy pot pourri of bars, pins and pipes which was a pain to set up, literally if you weren't careful.

[railsquid]

Some modern loco classes are made as electrics with batteries so are electric hybrids so they can travel beyond their pantograph system for completing train journeys further down the line. Several days ago I saw one of the new First Great Western units pass near Kidwelly with its pantograph naturally down as there is no overhead electric for miles. Just how far they go on their batteries I do not know as I don't know a lot about them except for the basic theory in how I was told they worked. Interesting though because as long as one has enough milage in the batteries to complete the longest trips and then some (Just incase something happens as things do!), then one will be ok. I do not know how far west they electrified but I did hear they got to Cardiff which was quite an achievement especially going under the Severn Tunnel!

They’re hybrid diesel-electric.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_800

[Bufferstop]

Some time in 1963 as part of my training I was sent to the GPO Telephone installation section working out of the old Witton (Birmingham) Barracks. Officially I caught a Walsall to Birmingham bus and changed at Perry Barr to an outer circle one. Actually I used to walk that bit of the ring road as I could do it in the interval before the next two or three buses turned up in convoy. There was a station goods yard behind a high wall just as I got to Witton and one morning I was surprised to see the roofs of three AL1s, or maybe they were other AL class but they had the original diamond frame pantographs, two each at that time, lined up in the yard. They were there for a week or so and then disappeared. At the time the wires only reached south to somewhere around Stafford, so they must have been dragged. All I could find out was that GEC were doing some work on them and that was the nearest they could get them to Witton (Electric Avenue) works.