Lake District: Locomotives from the 20s/30s

[sudoggie]

It's very early days for me in this game but I'd like to set my future layout in the Lake District which has some personal significance for our family. I know that the Lake District proper has never been abundantly supplied with railway lines so I'm not trying to create a perfect replica of, say, Windermere Station---this would be a completely imagined railway system with a Lake District backdrop. Primarily goods trains with a later evolution towards some passenger traffic.

My question is this: Which locomotives would be relatively historically appropriate for the inter-war period in the general vicinity of the lakes? I get that this is a bit of make believe but I want to avoid putting something in that is just ridiculously out of place and context. Please understand that I know very little about trains when it comes to specific models/types/formations etc.

I would appreciate any opinions and insights. Thanks.

[Journeyman]

You could imagine your railway was formed as a consequence of Wordsworth’s Sonnet stopping the construction of the Kendal and Windermere Railway. This would then have allowed the Maryport and Carlisle Railway to build a line south to your part of the Lakes!


Sonnet On The Projected Kendal And Windermere Railway.

Is then no nook of English ground secure
From rash assault? Schemes of retirement sown
In youth, and mid the busy world kept pure
As when their earliest flowers of hope were blown,
Must perish;—how can they this blight endure?
And must he too the ruthless change bemoan
Who scorns a false utilitarian lure
Mid his paternal fields at random thrown?
Baffle the threat, bright Scene, from Orrest-head
Given to the pausing traveller’s rapturous glance:
Plead for thy peace, thou beautiful romance
Of nature ; and, if human hearts be dead,
Speak, passing winds ; ye torrents, with your strong
And constant voice, protest against the wrong.

William Wordsworth.
Rydal Mount,

October 12th, 1844.

In reality Windermere was served by the LMS so any of there light mainline locomotives would have been seen such as the Fowler Class 2-6-4T which worked the line into the 60's. But if your railway is part of the M&CR it would give you accesses to all the mad history of that line and the locally made Locomotives!

Dave.

[glencairn]

There was the Cockermouth, Keswick & Penrith Railway (CK&PR) that had a backdrop of the Lake District.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockermou ... th_Railway

http://www.cockermouth.org.uk/history/ckpr.htm

http://disusedrailwaystations.blogspot. ... ilway.html

As for types of locomotives on the line I do not know, but possibly others here with LMS knowledge will know.

Glencairn

[Bufferstop]

And the Furness Railway to the south. They had some interesting locos.

[flying scotsman123]

Ok so apologies if any of the following is teaching granny to suck eggs. Pre-1923 there were over 120 different railway companies in Great Britain, some large, some small. Each had their own designs of locos to cover the various duties, so the range of classes must have been truly mind-numbing! In 1923 they were grouped into 4 larger companies, GWR, LNER, SR and LMS. Of course, when the railways were grouped, all the pre-grouping designs of locos hung around for quite some time, while the new big four companies introduced their own designs too. So the 1920s and 30s was a mish mash of pre-grouping locos in the new companies' liveries and new design locos from the newly merged companies.

In the Lake District area the major pre-grouping company was the LNWR, which was one of the largest pre-grouping companies. The Furness Railway was also a significant player in the Lake District, albeit a smaller company in the grand scheme of things. There were also a few other very small companies in the area. in the "grouping" era, it was very much LMS land as all those companies were merged into the LMS.

So, models. I'll stick to ready to run models in this post, if kit-building appeals do say, happy to suggest more. I'm also assuming OO gauge. The Furness Railway is sadly bereft of any ready to run models. The LNWR has a couple of designs in model form, both by Bachmann. LNWR 0-6-2 Coal Tank:



And LNWR 0-8-0 G2/super D:



Both of these are goods engines although the tank could have been seen on a small passenger train too.

That's it as far as I know for pre-grouping designs. After that, pretty much anything built by the LMS would probably be suitable. I have no knowledge of any specific classes that were associated with the Lake district, but I'll pop a few examples of fairly ubiquitous locos here easily available. These are all fairly early LMS designs, pre-1933:

2-6-0 Hughes Crab:



Again by Bachmann. For goods or passenger.

there's the Fowler 0-6-0T Jinty:



This is the Bachmann version, but Hornby do a cheaper, less detailed version, and the old tri-ang model even cheaper and less detailed (and likely a poorer runner). Small goods or sometimes passenger

Fowler 0-6-0 4F:



Again, Bachmann version pictured but Hornby do a cheaper less detailed version, while Airfix also made one which is now available even cheaper still, again lower detail, poorer mechanism).

Fowler 2-6-4T tank:



By Hornby, definitely a passenger tank, started off in this rather attractive Crimson livery, later in black.

Further reading try this Wikipedia page. Anything under Fowler would probably be fairly suitable, and most are available in oo gauge rtr, and some early Stanier designs would probbaly fit your desired time period too.

Hope that's not too overwhelming, the thing with model railways is you can take things as far as you like.

[Chops]

That 0-4-0 is a celebration in iron. I don't suppose that is commercially available? If I wanted one, I'd have to make it myself?

[Bigmet]

Smaller locos are what is required, and ideally an 0-6-0 type. These were far and away the most common type working at the time, roughly a third of the UK locomotive fleet and used as the 'maid of all work'. The smallest available 0-6-0 for the LMS lines is the Midland 3F 0-6-0 from Bachmann, and for want of any LMS alternative I'd suggest that as a possible 'placeholder' to get the operation going. Possible alternative in the form of the J36 from Hornby, although it is not a loco that ended up in the LMS group because it belonged to the NBR and thus went to the LNER; however the NBR had a line skirting the North of the Lake District from Carlisle to Silloth, so not that far away.

The choice in 0-6-0s has been expanding of late, but the LMS group is unfortunately the most neglected, so expect a wait before an LNWR, Furness, Maryport and Carlisle, Cockermouth, Keswick and Penrith, Cleator & Workington Junction Railway or Whitehaven, Cleator & Egremont Railway loco (of any sort) is available. The Caledonian and the North Eastern Railways weren't far away either, both present at Carlisle, and models of their 0-6-0 types are expected to be available soon. (The Caley 812 is a really pretty specimen, if that might influence your choice...)

That 0-4-0 is a celebration in iron. I don't suppose that is commercially available? If I wanted one, I'd have to make it myself?

At present, yes. But these 'lovely old things' are getting attention now, so there's a chance of a model of 'Old Coppernob' at some future time as this loco has some real fame from being exhibited at Barrow for many years, before going to the National Railway Museum at York.

[glencairn]

A very good selection of models available listed by FS123 and Bigmet

Some locomotives seen on CK&PR

Ex-LNWR 4.4.2 Whale 'Precursor Tank' 6811

Seen on Lakes Expresses in Cumberland & Westmorland --

LMS Compound 1174
Fowler 2.6.4 2359
Fairburn Tank 2.6.4 2105

Maybe a bit later in your timeframe was --
Royal Scot 6137 The Prince of Wales' Volunteers (South Lancashire) with three coaches of Lakes Express Keswick - Workington portion.
Patriot 5513 on a similar service.
'Jubilee' 5737 Atlas

Glencairn

[Bufferstop]

That 0-4-0 is a celebration in iron. I don't suppose that is commercially available? If I wanted one, I'd have to make it myself?

Quite right Chops, if you want to see how I did it check it out here
It was my first attempt at scratch building and was relatively easy, only two axles to get parallel and using self quartering axles. The motive power being hidden beneath the coal. The real thing is a masterpiece of reconstruction and when first rebuilt ran "Victorian Evening Excursions" which comprised "An early evening meal with a typical Victorian menu in the station dining room, a return trip over the Lakeside and Haverthwaite line, with a stop for a "run past" on the way, and a short trip on the oldest of the Lake Windermere steamers.

[Bigmet]

There is another approach to the problem of very little in the way of suitable models - not just locos but also the passenger vehicles - and that is to go total fiction. A quick look around at how the UK's pre-group railways are served with RTR models, of the sort which would still be operating in the 20s and 30s, suggests some candidates for this purpose.

Of what is currently (or soon to be) available, top pick would be Harry Wainwright's lovely C 0-6-0, D 4-4-0, H 0-4-4T and P 0-6-0T, and the 'birdcage' coaches from the SECR. That's as near as is available to a coherent 'complete set' of late Victorian locos, which would be in use as secondary power at the date proposed. (You could logically add the later N 2-6-0 to the loco list; and the Hattons and Hornby generic six wheelers would be acceptable in 'total fiction' terrain.)

Then after 1923 grouping the LMS 'injects' its own standard designs to provide 'the muscle' and modern passenger vehicles on the principal services.

[Chops]

Thank you for the comprehensive replies regarding this exquisite locomotive. That Victorian dinner and train is absolutely brilliant. I am resetting my sights on a UK Holiday for 2022, and if this event is still to be had, I will make my reservations now and plan the entire trip around it. Failing that, is there anything remotely like it?

Mr. Bufferstop, I read your thread, post, blog, start to finish. You make it look easy. I do have time on my hands, as my work is exceptionally relaxed in nature, and the boss would have no trouble with me doing something like this as long as I didn't bring in a drill press. The trouble is, you make it look easy. In my vast experience, falling off a log is easy.

I'll have a look on that book you referenced about scratchbuilding, for a start. My bigger question may be a trifle hard to explain: what elements of mastery have to be obtained before scratch building a complex object? Is it like playing the bag pipes, that is either you have an innate talent, or you do not?

I marvel at musicians, at bands, at singers, and stand in sheer awe as to their sense of rhythm, pitch, and overall timing. I do not believe such skills can be acquired. Honed, yes, acquired bollycock. You got it or you don't.

In the Army I was trained to shoot a rifle and hit the target 27 out of 40 times. This required much physical beating and emotional duress by the Drill Sergeants. My heritage, and that of my mother's, was greatly maligned in the process. I would have asked for a refund, but eBay wasn't invented, yet.

Similarly, I knew one surgeon who scarcely studied or glanced at the printed word. He was quite good.

I suppose I could start by scratch building a block of wood. If I could get the corners right, that would be something.

[sudoggie]

My word. A plethora of candidates. Thanks all.

Another question. In general, how does one distinguish between goods and passenger locomotives?

[flying scotsman123]

My word. A plethora of candidates. Thanks all.

Another question. In general, how does one distinguish between goods and passenger locomotives?

Very, very generally, goods engines have relatively smaller wheel diameters than passenger engines. The wheel arrangement can be a clue, 0-8-0s, 2-8-0s, 0-6-0s and 0-6-2s are highly likely to be goods engines, 4-4-0s, 4-4-2s, 4-6-0s and 4-6-2s are highly likely to be passenger engines. 2-6-0s and 2-6-2s were commonly mixed traffic.

Sometimes the name of the class can be a clue, certainly on the LMS the 4F class is pretty self-explanatory, power class 4 (out of F stands for freight, 2P power class 2 P stands for passenger. Some railway companies had different liveries for goods and passenger locos, with passenger ones having a more elaborate or colourful livery.

Worth remembering that there were very few types of loco that never hauled trains opposite to their main purpose. During busy summer bank holidays it was common for goods locos to be pulling holiday trains as shedmasters simply had to send out what they had, while certainly towards the end of steam even top link express passenger engines could be found in front of goods train.

If in doubt, a quick google of a particular class will usually answer your question in a couple of minutes.

[Bufferstop]

They are all locomotives, goods (freight) mixed traffic or passenger (express) overlap in their abilities, The major visible difference in steam days was the size of the wheels and the presence of a leading bogie. The pure goods loco will have small driving wheels and no leading bogie, or trailing one either needing to get all of its weight onto the drivers for maximum adhesion. At lower speeds a goods loco can pull a passenger train, when the speed goes up the guiding wheels are needed to lead the drivers into curves. Most railways had their mixed traffic locos, a bit bigger wheels and the bogie at the front to stop the drivers "climbing out" when it encounters a curve. Express passenger locos require large diameter wheels to keep down the speed that the pistons have to travel back and forward in the cylinders. That's the theory but then you find A4s pulling coal trains and branch line trains comprised of two coaches and an 0-6-0 tank. Diesels and electrics are far easier, change some gears or rearrange the wiring and a loco can be "tuned" to a different job.

15/08/21 Corrected an overlooked typo

[Bigmet]

...That Victorian dinner and train is absolutely brilliant. I am resetting my sights on a UK Holiday for 2022, and if this event is still to be had, I will make my reservations now and plan the entire trip around it. Failing that, is there anything remotely like it? ...

The UK offered a very wide choice of 'old-timey' experiences as visitor attractions before Covid. (My last such was puttering out and back along Loch Katrine in the Trossachs, and a joy throughout; not least because Scotland is much less busy, unlike Windermere where it appears all the world's waterski enthusiasts are falling over with monotonous regularity.)

Most of the operators will be keen to resume operation just as soon as the various restrictions are lifted. But are we out of the hole yet with Covid? I'd be cautious about putting any cash down until we have gone a year clear of any restrictions. (I want to drive along the Western Cordillera in an RV one more time, but don't expect that to be an 'unrestricted problem free' trip until 2023 at the earliest.)