Signalling - help please

[Buelligan]

This is a big ask I know, but I'm really struggling with the signals for my track, I just can't get my head around what type I need and where to place them. I've downloaded files for printing working signals, there are single, double and triple 'posts', and some of them have more than 1 signal on each post. I'm fairly sure there are some ground signals too, as well as the choice of upper or lower quadrant. Would anyone be able to annotate a track plan showing me what I need and where? I think I've made my first layout too complicated with the number of points on it as well as the double slip at the entrance to the goods yard.

Track plan attached in case anyone can help. Inside loop runs anti-clockwise and outer loop runs clockwise, as shown by the arrows, 3rd line on the left is used as a branchline in both directions, and the red rectangles are engine sheds. If the goods yard and crossover on that side of the layout are going to be as hard as I imagine they will be, I'll just do the signals for the station, engine sheds and branchline for now.

Thanks

[Mountain]

If only I had my other tablet. Your layout plan looks fairly straightforward, though may find space to put the signals an issue.
Probably best to simplify things to cater for where your trains actually go. So on a mainline before even reaching a point, the driver needs to know which way it is set, so one needs a junction signal. Either a semaphore (Raised type inmost regions and lowered type in Western Region areas (GWR, BR WR etc). If layout is set where colour light type (Which have been around for a lot longer than one thinks though some places even today still operate semaphore so depends where etc), then depending on the date, if ultra modern one needs those super bright "Feathers" on the signal and if one is modelling prior to around 2005 then one needs the dull type feathers and signal lights. (Remember this as colour light model signals changed to super bright typesto follow modern practice but forgot that modellers wanting to model before approx 2005 would be inaccurate if using this type even though they look outwardly identical (They started fitting super bright LED to existing signals after about 2005 or 2006).

But anyway... Position of signals is to both tell drivers and guards the route, and to tell them if they need to stop. For some branch lines, a token hut with associated signs would be more appropiate for end to end style layouts, but your branch would be better if controlled from a signal box.
Signals are often found on or near platforms but there is no set rule as it depends on the track layout, so some platforms may have no signal nearby if it is not needed. If there is a signal, a guard isnot allowed to give the right of way to the driver unless the signal has been cleared.
Consider platform left of the yellow arrow bottom platform. Would need a junction signal on the platform or nearby to show traincrew which route point is set to. Now the avoiding loop above only needs a single signal before the points (Inbetween the pair of tracks (Why one normally adds a little extra space between pairs of track if using flexible track). The reason why a standard non -junction signal is used is because the point ahead on this line is a trailing point so trains would only need to know if shunting in reverse, which a ground position signal will do. I hope this gives an example of the idea of where signals may be needed? Distant signals preceed home signals to give advanced warning as trains at speed need time to stop which is why advance warning is given. Hence the distant signal(s). Sometimes to save space, one may see a distant and a home on the same post. The distant relates to the next signal ahead.

[Richard08]

Signalling is one of the most misunderstood aspects of railways, never mind model ones! First off, you have to decide what level of signalling you want - the GWR in the 1930s signalled just about every possible move, others just had the bare minimum to meet Railway Inspectorate requirements. After that consider that under Absolute Block (semaphore, usually) 'wrong road' moves are controlled by ground signals ('dummies') - but these would not be for passenger trains which had to be controlled by 'proper' signals. In general you would not have a signal routing a up train down the down line. Since models are nowhere long enough to get full signalling in, the minimum length from distant to distant of s simple block post on a double track line of 60mph or over would be 2 miles - there's going to be a lot of compromise, in general distant signals don't appear (yes, exceptions with short sections, but that getting in too deep here). It also not practical to implement clearing points properly, 1/4 mile is a long way even in OO. The other basic is that the purpose of signals is to 'protect' something, the simplest example being two converging lines (same direction) each has a signal in advance (before) the junction to stop two trains trying to use it at the same time - the converging lines might be the main line and the exit from a goods yard, the exit from a loop, or another running line (or a level crossing, ground frame etc etc). Diverging lines would almost always have bracket signals (they don't actually have to be brackets, a gantry would do), one signal for each possible route - traditionally the highest signal would indicate the highest priority route (usually, but not necessarily the highest speed) - these would be read left to right (fairly obviously). That's probably as clear as mud, but I try...
On your track plan ; Looking at the station, travelling clockwise on the outer track starting from the left. The facing points would be protected by a 'junction' bracket, short post on the left going to the loop, taller post for straight through. At the end of the loop, and along side it on the main, there would be signals to protect the trailing connection to the main. They would be followed by a starter (section) signal - more on that in a bit. At the left end of the loop, the entrance to the two sidings would controlled by a ground signal, possibly two mounted one on top of the other - the top one controlling a wrong road move onto the main, the lower entry to the sidings (stacked dummies are read top to bottom, corresponding to left to right tracks - Exeter St Davids had a stack of 4). The exit from the two sidings could be a signal, but more likely a dummy. Likewise the siding at the exit from the loop, but this could not have a signal as the exit is wrong road, so just a dummy.
Looking at the station again, but travelling anti-clockwise on the inner track starting from the right. Again, junction bracket at the facing points and the same arrangement as the 'two sidings' for the one siding there. At the end of this loop though another junction bracket would be required, as running lines go back to the main or carry on onto the branch line - the branch like post would likely be the taller.
Looking at the bottom station : On the branch line going anti-clockwise there would be a signal protecting the trailing crossover and another before the double slip protecting the exit. No junction bracket is needed at the exit, as access to the headshunt would be controlled by a dummy as it's not a running line. The main would have a signal protecting the trailing connection from the double slipamd again followed by a starter/section signal. The anticlockwise (inner) main would be as per the top station, but with a dummy controlling moves over the training collection from the inner to outer mains, again possibly a double dummy (two routes). The clockwise main would only require a signal to protect the trailing connection, and then a starter/section signal. To get from the branch loop to the branch travelling clockwise I guess would need a signal, but the layout here is not prototypical so signalling falls apart somewhat. Other dummies could be used to control shunting moves at points.
On this layout it may be desirable to use distant signals attached to the section signals (with brackets as required) as it's a good representation of where two signal boxes are very close together, indeed as close as they can be, hence distants on the starters.
A note on ground signals : these allow moves that cannot be signalled, such as wrong road or to dead ends, but they also allow moves into a non-permissive section of track. A platform road for example, since it's 'passenger', is not permissive so it is not allowed to signal a second train behind the first, but when say wanting to attach an engine dummies are used to permit the move, but essentially only under caution. A goods loop might well be permissive, so the signal can be used and no dummy is required. Stacking of dummies is not essential, one is often ok leaving the driver/guard/shunter to determine they are going the right way, but in busy areas or where the route to the eventual destination is not clearly visible the extra dummies indicating routes may be regarded as necessary for safety.
Under MAS/Track Circuit Block wrong-road moves are permitted, so that changes things a bit but is I think N/A here. As every with things railway, there are 1001 exceptions to everything.

[Buelligan]

Thanks for a very thorough reply. I won't lie, I had to read it a few times, but I think I sort of understand the rough signalling for the station area, with some ground signals for the engine sheds? I think I'll get a selection of signals printed off and then try placing some and then come back with photos to see if I've got it roughly right.

*edited to add* Sorry mountain I missed your reply, which I've now read, a simplified version will definitely be the way to go. There is definitely no room for signals between the tracks on the curves, track is so close the coaches almost touch as they pass each other on a curve. But I could put 1 to left of the track (looking from the direction of travel). As for region most of my locos are LNER, ex-great central or BR liveried LNER (with 1 single GWR loco in the mix), so it would be a case of whatever was typical of the LNER. Era again is no specific year, but most likely to be 1940's considering most of the locos, stock and cars I've got, though I'd imagine some are actually 1950's, so as a general idea sometime between the 30's and late 50's.

[Mountain]

A small overhead signal gantry may be the answer.

[Richard08]

The engine shed, or movements within, would not require signalling (same for yards) - where hand points are in use signalling does not apply except for entry/exit - which would be 'controlled' (i.e. worked by the signalman).
I'm not sure how clear this will come out as we are not allowed to use high res images, but here's a bit done with annotations..

1: Dummy controlling exit from the shed
2: Dummy controlling entrance to the shed and wrong-road moves on to the clockwise main
3: Junction bracket, short post on the left controlling entrance to the platform, taller right post controlling the main
4: Single signal protecting trailing points on main with a dummy controlling entrance to the siding
5: Single signal protecting trailing pints form platform
6: Dummy controlling wrong-road moves to main or platform
7: Dummy controlling exit from siding
8: Dummy controlling wrong-road moves to the clockwise main or platform
9: (should be other side of the track) Signal controlling entrance to the platform
10: junction bracket, tall left post to branch and shorter right to main
11: Signal protecting trailing cross-over on main
12: Dummy controlling wrong-road moves to the clockwise main or siding
13: Junction bracket, shorter left post to the platform, taller right post to main
14: Dummy controlling exit from the siding

It's a lot easier to assume your branch line is controlled with acceptance levers rather than worry about where token instruments would be, a handy cheat
Hope this doesn't muddy the waters even more!
Signals are generally on the left of the tracks unless there are sighting issues in which case they can go anywhere visible - the GRW, being right-hand drive, had quite a collection of weird set ups. If you cannot get the signal between the tracks don't worry, just put it somewhere in the vicinity citing sighting issues.

[Buelligan]

Thanks for raking the time to do that, a lot easier to understand now, thank you. I will have to check, but with very carful placement, I think I can get signals between the track on straight sections, the only issue would be if I needed to put them between the mainlines on the curves. I hadn't considered the use of ground frames within the engine shed areas and goods yard, and also hadn't really realised it would mean there'd be no need for signals too.

I've started printing out some signals to have a go with, they're listed as OO gauge but they seem a little over-sized to me, so might have to play with the scaling a little too. I have some from a different designer, and on some of those, the arms for the signals have and 'S' or an 'O' on them half way along

Just a couple more questions, first, regards Nos. 4 and 7, I should have pointed out, that short track isn't a siding, it will actually disappear into a tunnel, as if its another branchline or mainline connection, I'm guessing that changes the signalling requirements?

And, a test of whether I have my head around this any better now: using the inside loop that goes in the direction go the yellow arrows as an example, a train is at the platform waiting to get back onto the mainline (and I know this probably wouldn't actually happen, but space restrictions means I can't fit a central platform in) and another train is coming round and will nee to pass the first set of points but stop at the 2nd, to allow the other train to exit the station, No.13, lower left post would be a 'home' signal, set to stop, taller right post, would have a 'home' at the top, set to clear, and taller right post lower, would a 'distant' yellow/black, set to stop? And then No.11 would also need to be set to stop? Or have I completely misunderstood it all?

Signal box currently sits at the end of the platform between Nos. 4 and 7, would it be better placed elsewhere, or to have a 2nd box installed somewhere? Sorry for all the questions, but I just can't find a book or anything online that explains this sort of thing in terms I understand.

Here's a quick photo of the signals I've printed, the lower part of the post goes through to the underside of the baseboard to allow wires to up inside to make the signals work.

[Richard08]

I've started printing out some signals to have a go with, they're listed as OO gauge but they seem a little over-sized to me, so might have to play with the scaling a little too. I have some from a different designer, and on some of those, the arms for the signals have and 'S' or an 'O' on them half way along

Check the sizes of the arms against prototype, they are bigger than you think. Those letters on the arms are sort of specialised ground signals, having a specific function for that signal box to allow some specific movement.

Just a couple more questions, first, regards Nos. 4 and 7, I should have pointed out, that short track isn't a siding, it will actually disappear into a tunnel, as if its another branchline or mainline connection, I'm guessing that changes the signalling requirements?

Yes, 4 becomes another junction bracket, and a signal protecting the points on the inbound direction

And, a test of whether I have my head around this any better now: using the inside loop that goes in the direction go the yellow arrows as an example, a train is at the platform waiting to get back onto the mainline (and I know this probably wouldn't actually happen, but space restrictions means I can't fit a central platform in) and another train is coming round and will nee to pass the first set of points but stop at the 2nd, to allow the other train to exit the station, No.13, lower left post would be a 'home' signal, set to stop, taller right post, would have a 'home' at the top, set to clear, and taller right post lower, would a 'distant' yellow/black, set to stop? And then No.11 would also need to be set to stop? Or have I completely misunderstood it all?

Right, I'll give this a go but it's hard without diagrams... There follows a load of waffle about semaphore signalling, it's the only way I can explain what I think your question is. You are driving you train along and you are approaching a signal box that is the simplest there can be (usually referred to as a block post, confusingly as all signal boxers are in fact block posts!). All it exists for is help shorten sections to get more trains through - it has no points, no sidings, nowt. One mile in advance of the box you will pass the distant signal. This is the yellow and black affair. It can be in one of two states, 'on' (danger) or 'off' (clear). After the mile is up, you will pass, or maybe stop at, a stop signal - the red and white affair. This can be in the same two states as the distant only red instead of yellow. Depending on the company the arm is off when raised or lowered, but horizontal is always danger. That's the set up. Now, back to you in your train. You see the distant is at danger, so proceed assuming the next signal be on, i.e. you've got to stop. You never think "ah yes, that'll be the 10.15, it'll be gone so I don't need to slow down". Between the signal boxes you are in the section, only one train is ever allowed in each section. So you brake nice and come to a stop at the red type signal. This is now called the home signal, the first stop signal on your line controlled by that signal box. When the section ahead of you becomes clear the signalman will pull off the signal, which now becomes known as the starter, or more formally, section signal, the last signal on your line controlled by that box - it tells you the section ahead is clear all the way to the next signal box. And off you go. When the signalman has seen your tail lamp he can then, if asked, accept a following train.
Winding back to the start... if the distant is off you know that all signals ahead, including the section signal, are off - so you can go whizzing through at full tilt. Though in this scenario the home and sections signal are physically one and the same, they would much more usually have a number of other stop signals (red ones) between them, in which case if you had arrived with the distant at danger you would obey each signal in turn until you enter the section. That is the basis of absolute block signalling - the line is closed (all signals are at danger) until opened to allow the passage of a train. FWIW Under track circuit block (colour light) the line is open until closed by the passage of a train.
OK, you have the idea of how the multiple arms thing goes, so I'll have a bash the next stage. Going back to the simple block post set up, lets say the next signal box is only one mile from this first box. That means it's distant signal has to be where 'our' section signal is - so lets just put it on the same post - it works just as before, just sharing the post. Aside - In congested areas, or big stations (e.g. Taunton which had three boxes and Silkmill Crossing all in about 20 yds) the boxes were obviously much closer together, so the one mile rule got shortened, often by lowering the speed limit. So that's why you can get distant and section signal on the same post.
Now to actually answer your question! So we want to overlay one set of signals for route carrying on along the main, and one that goes along the platform to the branch. Getting back on your train but now approaching the station. As you approach you pass the distant as ever, but now it has a bracket, copying the signal at 13 but in yellow - if it's off for the main away we go, if off for the platform ditto (you might be a freight not stopping). Let say you are a freight but there's a passenger wanting to overtake. You'd get the distant on (both arms), 13 would be off to the main and then 11 on. You stop, your guard reports complete with tail lamp (if the signalman cannot see himself) and then another train may enter the section, signalled into the platform. The off it goes and when the section is clear you follow. Equally you might be a stopper or freight put into the platform so the fast can go whizzing straight through on the main. Your arrangement there is fine, two platforms with unplatformed through lines is far from uncommon. I didn't put section signals on the drawing, but basically they would be somewhere after the last points in the direction of travel. Note that both you loops (the platform roads) have branch lines going off the ends, so the distant being bracketed makes sense. Were they just loops with no alternative exits it's unlikely the the distants would be bracketed because it wouldn't make much sense, 99% of the time you'd be stopping anyway if using the loop.
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Signal box currently sits at the end of the platform between Nos. 4 and 7, would it be better placed elsewhere, or to have a 2nd box installed somewhere? Sorry for all the questions, but I just can't find a book or anything online that explains this sort of thing in terms I understand.

One would be plenty, anywhere you like - but if you wanted having one at each end is no more implausible than many things model railway.
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Here's a quick photo of the signals I've printed, the lower part of the post goes through to the underside of the baseboard to allow wires to up inside to make the signals work.

This 3d printing malarkey is getting much better.

[Mountain]

Many semaphore signals were track circuited even on absolute block lines, hence the horizontal white diamond symbol fitted to the signal posts to show traincrew the line was track circuited.

All signals carried a number usually on a black metal rectangular plate. They had the signal box abbreviated two or three letters of the controlling signal box (E.G. CJ = Carmarthen Junction) followed underneath by the individual signal number. So for added realism, even if your station is fictional, you can invent or use the real signal abbreviations and numbers on each signal. The principle signals always carried a phone in a weatherproof box. The ground signals did not, but they still had their signal plates fitted though usually had horizontal plates due to space if I recall correctly. Ground position disc signals are self explanitary. Horizontal like = do not proceed. Line at a 45 degree angle (Or there abouts) = proceed. (Any doubts to the aspect of any signal and traincrew had to treat it at danger and phone signalbox to clarify).
Colour light ground position signals had three lights. Two on the base and one light above the left hand base light. The top light was white. Below it was red and the "Corner" light on the right was white. Either one would see the two bottom lights which were red and white which meant "Do not proceed", or one would see two white lights at 45 degrees which meant "Proceed".
Later (About 2006 onwards I believe as a rough guide) LED replacements to signal bulbs were used. Ordinary signals got brighter especially noticable with signal "Feathers" which in the past showed dull lights. Probably the largest noticable difference was with the ground position light signals. As LED's can be dual colour in the same device, they took advantage of this and the corner bulb of the three (Lower right) would either show red or white, so one saw two red lower horizontal lights = "Do not proceed" or two white lights at 45 degrees = "Proceed".
While I edit this, I forgot the colour light version of the "Limit of shunt" signal. (Older signals would say "Limit of shunt" on them so were self explanitory. The colour light signal version which was permanently illuminated had the same triangular shaped outer box and similar to a ground position light signal, would be placed near the ground, but the top signal part was plated over and thetwo hottom signals always showed red. These were always illuminated as these signals were not designed to change aspect.

Also to be had were headshunt signals shich allowed trains to proceed out of the headshunt for shunting purposes or onto the main line. Very sinilar signals to the ordinary three light ground position signals so would be found on the ground, BUT would have a yellow light where the red light is on an ordinary ground position signal. A disc version of this would be a horizontal yellow line instead of the red one that most discs use.

Sometimes there were also "Calling on" signals. Colour light versions would just have two white lights at 45 degrees in a box that looked the same as a ground position signal, except this box was mounted at drivers eye height. There were only two white lights. White lights were to proceed (A short distance, e.g. at a carriage washing plant) and if they were not illuminated it was "Do not proceed" or rather "Wait!" (I believe theremay have had a small version of a semaphore signal in the early days to do this? But needs clarification).
Other signals... Token working signals. Red flashing light = danger. Do not proceed.
White light = proceed (As long as one has obtained the right token).
Crossing colour light signals were to confirm to drivers that the crossing was lowered to stop cars. Red flashing would mean it wasn't and white light meant crossing was ready to cross. When guards had to operate these crossings by plunger, some crossings had reminder lights if I recall vaguely to show to traincrew that the crossing had gone back up after one had crossed it. If not, driver would stop and guard would walk back and operate crossing as the treadle in the track was faulty and did not raise the crossing as it was supposed to. (Treadle is like a big version of a micro switch designed for the wheel flanges to push it down as they pass).

Please note. It has been over a decade since I last worked on the railways so my memory may not be as sharp as it was.

Sharp curves had oilers fitted to the track where the passingof trains would put some grease on the inside flanges to help the wheels slide round the curves. These oilers were painted yellow but often got dirty.

[Richard08]

Many semaphore signals were track circuited even on absolute block lines, hence the horizontal white diamond symbol fitted to the signal posts to show traincrew the line was track circuited.

All signals carried a number usually on a black metal rectangular plate. They had the signal box abbreviated two or three letters of the controlling signal box (E.G. CJ = Carmarthen Junction) followed underneath by the individual signal number.

That's not actually the case, certainly early 80s at my box. Not having any track circuits would have been very unusual, I think I'm right in saying they were a requirement for (regular) passenger lines, but yes a white diamond indicated the signal had a corresponding track circuit. It might seem a bit daft having the diamonds when 'everything' is track circuited, but the reason for the diamond was to indicate that the signalman would be aware of the trains presence, obviating the requirement for the guard (freight) or driver (passenger) to ring the box to report arrival (unless the guard needed to report tail lamp due to the signalman not being able to see it).

Also to be had were headshunt signals shich allowed trains to proceed out of the headshunt for shunting purposes or onto the main line. Very sinilar signals to the ordinary three light ground position signals so would be found on the ground, BUT would have a yellow light where the red light is on an ordinary ground position signal. A disc version of this would be a horizontal yellow line instead of the red one that most discs use.

'Yellow' dummies were used in circumstances where movements need to be made regularly that don't effect running lines, but occasionally access to a running line is required. Usually there was a ground frame or locking key associated with it. In normal use, i.e. when locked to the yard, depot or whatever the signal can be passed at danger (yellow disc or light). The yellow signal is locked on, the signalman cannot move it, or move any points that would connect the yard to the running line, ditto the ground frame/points - foul moves were locked out. When a move needed to access the running line key locking the ground frame or points would be taken out of the frame and put into token machine like machine (Annetts Key I think?), this would release the signal and points to the signalman's control. This would be indicated to drivers by the the yellow signal being set to off.
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[Richard08]

A bit on track circuit block signals, which are organised differently, but sort of not so! There are three types of MAS signal - automatic (rectangular white plate on the post), semi-automatic (rectangular white plate with a horizontal black line) and controlled (no plate). All MAS signals carry box ID and number for reporting purposes, and a phone connected to the (power) box. In the event of failure of the signal automatic signals may be passed with caution (being prepared to stop short of any obstruction or danger). Automatic signals are basically simple block posts, there will only ever be plain track between it and the next signal, the signalman has no control over what aspects it shows, though it would revert to red if there were some incident shorting the track circuit, such as track circuit clips being used. Semi-automatic signals would protect something occasionally used, like a ground frame controlling access to a siding . In the event of failure the train crew would have to ring in to get permission to pass it, but if that was not possible as, say, the phone was broken as well, it is permitted to pass it without permission, but with extreme caution (route knowledge would ensure knowing what lies ahead possible obstruction wise). Semi-automatic signals can be controlled by the signalman, but usually operate in automatic mode. Controlled signals cannot be passed at danger in any circumstances without express permission of the signalman, they control junctions and such. If the signal phone isn't working another must be found - up to and including trudging across fields to a farm house or phone box (remember them!) and ringing the box on the 'secret' land line - and if the farmer wouldn't want top pay for the call or you had no change for the phone box you would contact the operator and place a (free!) civil emergency call to the box. If all else failed someone would have to walk down or up the line until a working phone was found. The default state of automatic and semi-automatic is green, whereas controlled signals default state is on (danger).
MAS signals come in 3 flavours - 2-aspect, 3-aspect and 4-aspect. On 2-aspect lines (e.g. Berks & Hants) the signals work in pairs, exactly line the very basic semaphore block post above - the first will show either green or yellow, the second green or red. With 3-aspect signalling it's a kind of rolling version of the same thing - if it's red you stop, if it's yellow you expect to stop at the next signal, if it's green the next signal will either be green or yellow (not red except in emergencies). 4-aspect is 3-aspect on steroids, the same idea but with the addition of double yellow. 4-aspect signals have a shorter over-lap than three, so can be closer together thus giving extra capacity.
Junctions are indicated by feathers, 7 possible routes available if required, the signals have the same meanings, just giving route info. It was only just arriving when I left, but a flashing yellow would indicate that the junction, actually usually a high speed cross-over, signal ahead is actually off, but you are being signalled onto a lower speed route, the AWS buzzer providing a hint as well. In station areas a route indicator might be used - giving the number of the platform you are heading for, or some combination code number/letters indicating the route. The GWR, and doubtless others, had mechanical route indicators where required, using codes on white squares mechanically lowered or raised as required by the signalman - giving route info only, not signals as such. If the divergent speed is significantly lower than the main, approach control may be used - the junction signal remains on (even when the signalman has set it to off) for a given time after the train has activated a treadle at the previous signal, ensuring the train slows since it is approaching a danger signal, thus controlling the speed through the points. Another of those cases when even though you 'know' the signal will come off as you approach, you have to be prepared to stop - Rule 2 : Never assume anything! Approach control was also used in areas where semaphore signals had been replaced like-for-like with 2-aspect colour lights, Fairwood Junction was one.
Of course, with radio and mobiles, things are likely very different today!

Now, can anyone explain European signalling? I've watched many European cab ride videos and I think I've got the gist of it - it seems they all use the same basic system but with differing bells and whistles - until I realise I haven't really. I find it somehow alien, but I guess it works ok.

[Buelligan]

Thank you both for the very comprehensive replies once again! I think I'm actually starting to understand it enough to have a simplified effort on my layout. I've got a few more signal printing off at the moment, managing to get 3 or 4 on the printer at once, and only take around 3 hours to print. In a couple of weeks I should have both the signals, and the time, to have a bash at roughly placing them, will then take photos to check I've got it right. Thanks once again, proof if ever it were needed, that in a lot of cases forums are far better than Facebook groups!