Hornby's hot' announcement So it's TT 120!

[Mountain]

I was thinking about the type of person who would buy this new TT, and I would say that it is going to be mostly the Triang TT enthusiasts and also those who are already into railway modelling.

Initially I thought that it would be good for beginners, but to me there are two "Types" of beginners. Those who have retired with good pensions after putting in a lifetime of work to reach that point, who always wanted a model railway, and the young who have always been entering into our lovely hobby.

I have noticed that some Triang TT enthusiasts are making the change as there has been a sudden flood of Triang TT products onto the market.

I can't though see that the young will take on TT when entering into the hobby due to the expected prices. One thinks 00 is expensive. TT has to have all new molding so it is doubtful it will be sold at an attractive price, as parents need to be very careful these days with their budgets.

I do see (Though for a limited period of time) new blood in the form of recently retired people buying into it, but I also notice that due to the economy situation it can be a difficult time.

Strangely I know what will sell and sell well but it is a different concept entirely to the one Hornby and others have taken and I am not sure that many would take this route... But the demand is certainly there.

[Richard08]

When it looked like there was an coordinated effort in the industry behind TT (Peco, Heljan, GM, Hornby) with agreed standards and interoperability the idea had some traction. Alas the cohesion turned out to be an illusion and Hornby find themselves in exactly the same boat as with their previous TT attempt, only with a much smaller market overall than then. Selling stuff on-line into an existing market is one thing, trying to create a new one on-line only is going to be much trickier. They, apparently, are after new entrants to the hobby, who's first few purchases are likely to be by mum and dad at Christmas or birthday. Mum and dad are going to stick with the known, either by their own experience or looking around to see 'what everyone else is doing' rather than face a melt-down later when their off-spring are unable to use their kit with their mates layouts, or 'why can't I get one of these like my mate has.' History is, I fear, going to repeat itself, especially as there doesn't appear to be any significant cost difference (which is exactly a conversation I had with my dad back in the 60s when I liked the idea of TT! The same went for N by the way, which was niche at the time).

[Mountain]

When it looked like there was an coordinated effort in the industry behind TT (Peco, Heljan, GM, Hornby) with agreed standards and interoperability the idea had some traction. Alas the cohesion turned out to be an illusion and Hornby find themselves in exactly the same boat as with their previous TT attempt, only with a much smaller market overall than then. Selling stuff on-line into an existing market is one thing, trying to create a new one on-line only is going to be much trickier. They, apparently, are after new entrants to the hobby, who's first few purchases are likely to be by mum and dad at Christmas or birthday. Mum and dad are going to stick with the known, either by their own experience or looking around to see 'what everyone else is doing' rather than face a melt-down later when their off-spring are unable to use their kit with their mates layouts, or 'why can't I get one of these like my mate has.' History is, I fear, going to repeat itself, especially as there doesn't appear to be any significant cost difference (which is exactly a conversation I had with my dad back in the 60s when I liked the idea of TT! The same went for N by the way, which was niche at the time).

N gauge took off and survived because there was more than one manufacturer involved so customers had a choice of what to buy.

Some solo ventures do and can take off but they need to be aimed at the right target customets.

The big advantage of TT is its size and it may work because in the past the emergence of N killed TT, but now modellers have spent a lot of time with N and with 00 but only a few with TT, so they know "Why" they prefer 00 to N (Though N is lovely) and TT was not considered in the past except for by the few due to the limited support especially after Triang called it a day and pulled out.

TT is likely to have slightly better running qualities compared to N gauge, and they fit in a smaller space than 00. These qualities themselves are attractive so the concept of a new TT is a good one, especially as one can correct the gauge to scale ratio and any coupling issues from the start.

I can see where Hornby are coming from in this venture but I also think that it is a bit like a "Preaching to the converted" approach when what the hobby really needs is to follow an adventure and make something that really appeals to the unconverted.
I know how to do that but it means aiming in a different way.

[Bigmet]

'Steampunk' was completely over well before Hornby's feeble attempt to monetise it.
Honesty compels: personally I never saw a more meaningless concept; American style halloween crossed with complete mechanical ineptitude.

[Mountain]

I apologize for shortening the thread.

Steampunk was over by then because commercialism killed it as the commercial concept was to capture conceptional aspects into a product and mass duplicate them and steampunk was about being very individualistic which was its fundamental appeal.

Hornby approaced this from commercialized eyes and killed it just like commercialism killed the steampunk movement by not adapting to the aspects that attracted the people.

To capture the steampunk market one has to understand why the people liked it, and to do that one needs to adapt the products to aid and not destroy the appeal.

It is actually fairly easy to capture this but it has to be with a new venture which would not be labelled into the steampunk catagory... But still one can capture the people who have been drawn into the concepts of seampunk, because the people are looking for the creativity they can grasp so they can feel part of something good.

This can be done in model railways and it can take off.

Think of Thomas. Think of the target audience.

Think of model railways as a wider concept. Todays target audience in Hornbys eyes are only a small more vocal segment of the hobby. They are if anything a bit of a missmatch of past and current concepts all mixed into one and this is why it does not gel well together since Hornby started taking over other brands and put their stamp on them.
They concentrate their aim at the collector but alienate others in doing this as this hobby has a much wider appeal, so todays target customers are not the same as there had been in the past which is why I would personally separate the different aimed products and re-brand them but include a little thing saying "Part of the Hornby group of products".
One can then send each rebranded concept in its own direction to cater for each segment of the market.

[Richard08]

(The Steampunk idea which was a good one

I come (came?) across Steampunk folk quite a lot on the fringes of the music world. It's is an intensely personalised, er, thing - a mass market product is almost exactly not what the folk want, a bit like trying to sell Lib Dems to anarchists (that's proper anarchists). As you say later, a range of accessories to allow personalisation would have been more appropriate - not least as a plethora of companies do exactly that (though not necessarily trains). I'd add that the average age of the Steampunk folk is likely to be slap bang in the 'traditional' gap years between giving up trains and returning (much) later to the hobby, so perhaps flogging a dead horse there. That said, the world is changing a lot (for the better!) where adulting no longer excludes having or doing things simply for the joy of it. The post regarding the 'web sensation' train spotter I linked in the Real World Railways thread shows the mold being broken further still (I was tempted to post that to The Other Place to see what happened but it would probably have involved blue touch paper and standing well back). It looked, to me, like Hornby trying to cash in without really having a plan with Steampunk when the initial fad passed (which it had already done by the time they got stuff in the shops). Will they try Warhammer next? (Warhammer sites are a great source of scenic stuff, the only place I could find an O gauge roller for impressing street cobbles into clay for example). Then there's the Leggo train phenomenon, which has really caught on.... No, Hornby, don't....

[Bigmet]

... It looked, to me, like Hornby trying to cash in without really having a plan with Steampunk when the initial fad passed (which it had already done by the time they got stuff in the shops). Will they try Warhammer next? (Warhammer sites are a great source of scenic stuff, the only place I could find an O gauge roller for impressing street cobbles into clay for example). Then there's the Lego train phenomenon, which has really caught on.... No, Hornby, don't....

Spot on. From my perspective, Hornby only engaged in production of scale OO models suitable for railway modelling, thanks to Bachmann's entry in the 1990s with product way better than any of Margate's UK manufactured dross. We have had a useful twenty some year run of decent models from Hornby as a result, some of it very good. But I expect corporate boredom has set in by now; with voices clamouring for making something simpler than scale model railway product, and no more of the nuisance of customers apt to use micrometers and multimeters to support their criticisms.

Let's do Star Wars in Play Dough...

[b308]

Mountain I'd suggest you don't know the TT market very well if you think that existing Triang TT modellers will buy the new stuff! They won't as its a different scale! There will be some ebay sellers that are trying to jump on the bandwagon, but it's unlikely that 3mm scale modellers will switch over to the new stuff, if they were they'd have already been buying the Corgi 120 scale stuff and converting it and I have seen no evidence of that.

You need to watch Hornby's video to find out their proposed market, they are targeting new people to model railways, those who wouldn't buy 00 because it's too big and N because it's too small. With modern production techniques and limited runs it won't need a great number of them to get it off the ground. In addition they will also get sales from those of us who have wanted to model TT but didn't like the 3mm scale 12mm gauge discrepancy or having to regauge or build chassis for 14.2mm! Judging by comments on social media there's a fair number of us around as well.

I take it you weren't around when N started in the UK, the choices were tiny and of very poor quality, it took a while for it to get off the ground. Also there was very little choice initially, unlike this launch when it does get going.

You can see the prices as Hornby have already released them they are below 00 but dlightly above N, which is to be expected.

I feel you are over analysing things, you, like me, don't know the market that well and I've no doubt that Hornby will have done their research a damn sight more thoroughly than we have or could do!

The only thing about the timing was outside their control, the political and financial turmoil. But to be fair to them they've gone for it anyhow!

[Bufferstop]

Got my hands on some today, definitely not vapourware. There won't be any shortage of track, according to Simon K it's the one big advantage of using an established scale, the factory that supplies track for the continental TT120 ranges just stamp a different name under the sleepers. Couldn't persuade anyone to take the top of a loco, but they pack enough weight. The coupler is a masterpiece in plastic moulding but like nothing seen on any other gauge. Got a couple of short video clips, I'll post them when Windows decides it can copy a file from my phone, brute force reset called for methinks.

[Bigmet]

Got my hands on some today, definitely not vapourware...

Gosh, actual direct information from 'hands on'.

[b308]

Better than that, here's some photos! Even though they were all pre production models they looked fine to me and confirmed I've done the right thing by ordering a set. Simon did say, though, that due to a late issue with the wheels on the locos there had been a one week delay and so they had missed the boat(!), they are trying to get some affordable flights to get the sets across before Christmas but warned it could be the week after. I replied that as I'd waited 50+ years for TT I could wait another week or two! Sorry about the quality of the photos, should have taken the camera and no relied on the phone!

[Bigmet]

Good work by Hornby, that'll do the job. Thanks for such a useful post.

[Bufferstop]

Thanks for the photos Blair they cover what I had and more. The arrangement to allow only a small number to occupy the room and work "one out one in" certainly made it easier to see what was available. Simon's a wily old fox, no complaints from the queue waiting to go in, he'd stationed his glamorous assistant Montana just opposite the queue!

[b308]

That's who she was! I was first there on Sunday and she asked for my TT Club card/number/email which i didn't have (at least I might have had the email somewhere on my phone but the others hadn't come!). Simon just said to let me in!!

[Bufferstop]

I'd taken the precaution of printing out the welcome email, but the lady with the membership list had arrived and was working on the assumption that if you knew about the email you must have joined.