Hornby's hot' announcement So it's TT 120!

[Bigmet]

My guess is Hornby have looked hard into their crystal ball and come to the conclusion that relying on OO is not going to be profitable enough in the longer term. With major retailers now offering their own ranges and numerous new smaller players like Accurascale and Rapido to take an ever increasing chunk of Hornby sales they have decided to 'go big' on a new venture where Margate can rule the roost...

I feel you are right on the money! The scale of the Hornby TT announcement and proposed availability dates suggests some of the reason for the hold ups in Hornby's OO deliveries: they likely have given their TT launch some priority over the existing OO business.

As for 'ruling the roost', it has already begun: one significant competitor product proposal has already been abandoned in the face of the Hornby onslaught. I am interested to see just how far Hornby push this, my suspicion is that Hornby will want to 'manage the channel'; to a far greater extent than they can achieve in OO, where 'alternative views' on Hornby's product are widely available...

...Relying on direct sales (at least initially) will boost profitability and help to offset the huge initial investment. A risky move possibly but it might work if new entrants to the hobby opt for TT in significant numbers and some existing modellers decide to jump ship...

I have talked to a friend who has made a career in direct marketing, and he reckons Hornby are onto a good thing, provided the product performs. Bear in mind this isn't just the UK, but global: the fastest growing retail sector by value is people who buy most of their products and services online, and not coincidentally these same people have the deepest pockets. See something they like the look of, just buy it. So it's a 'few hundred' scale purchase whether in Dollars, Euro, Yen, Peso, etc.; only some of them have to find it fun and buy some more, show their friends online what they have bought this week (your customers do a lot of advertising for you!) and Hornby's biggest problem in TT could be supply...

And another thing: the 'signal to noise' ratio is high in this retail sector. Hornby will know within months of the product going on sale whether 'IT'S A WINNER!' : or it isn't going to fly, so quickiy bail out and cut your losses.

[b308]

As for 'ruling the roost', it has already begun: one significant competitor product proposal has already been abandoned in the face of the Hornby onslaught. I am interested to see just how far Hornby push this, my suspicion is that Hornby will want to 'manage the channel'; to a far greater extent than they can achieve in OO, where 'alternative views' on Hornby's product are widely available.

I'm a bit concerned about that paragraph, like some others it would seem to indicate a possible dislike of the manufacturer and a suggestion of "bullying" tactics. To look at it from another angle, if someone is going to start up a new scale from scratch Hornby's approach would seem the most logical. Producing the odd model isn't going to kick start the scale, producing a large range of models might well do so, and I feel has the best chance of success. Of course they would like to "manage the channel", what manufacturer attempting to do what they are doing wouldn't do the same.

As for Heljan, that's their choice, they didn't have to, they don't seem to have been very far down the development line so could have switched prototypes, or even carried on on a "quality" basis (though my experience in 009 would indicate their models don't always hit the mark in that respect). But they haven't, they've simply pulled out which would indicate at this stage their interest was perhaps only luke warm and that maybe they have decided it's best for someone else to test the water, so to speak, before they get involved. Hopefully in the future they will.

Perhaps I've misread your tone, Bigmet, in which case I apologise, but there does seem to be some, shall we say, resistance to the launch here, which I'd have expected over on the other forum (where there's been lots!) but I had hoped for more tolerance over here, hence my return, but it seems I may have been mistaken.

[Bigmet]

...I'm a bit concerned about that paragraph, like some others it would seem to indicate a possible dislike of the manufacturer and a suggestion of "bullying" tactics...

No hostility intended, I am a laissez-faire capitalist, and Hornby are free to do exactly as they choose, and must stand or fall by their own decisions. (Likewise Heljan's decision, which strikes me as very sensible now that the information is out that Hornby have had their TT project underway for several years, and as a result are very likely to beat them to market by some margin.)

My interest in this is that while I am a spectator regarding TT, within the model industry 'what goes around, often comes around'. If this initiative - whether the product or the marketing methodology - is seen to work for Hornby; their competitors won't be slow in making changes of their own to improve their own prospects...

[Richard08]

but there does seem to be some, shall we say, resistance to the launch here, which I'd have expected over on the other forum (where there's been lots!) but I had hoped for more tolerance over here, hence my return, but it seems I may have been mistaken.

I have to say I'm happy that the TT issue, if it is one, has been discussed very reasonably here. Yes, there is a lean towards not being over impressed, as opposed 'resistance' as such. We all have our little biases, I know I do! Last night I read through some of the (then) 75 pages of pure speculation (often given as 'fact') on The Other Place's TT thread - absolutely hilarious. Some things never change

[b308]

Thanks, Chaps, pleased that you feel the way you do! I'm just very happy that someone has actually made some British TT, and not just the odd loco, and I can start my first SG layout in decades!

[Richard Lee]

Must admit that when I started thinking about model railways a few years ago I did look to see if anyone still made TT (I just about remember the old Triang 3mm to a foot TT). Can't see me changing now, though, although I think either of the TT scales are a better size than OO for many houses. Had a mad moment where I started fantasising about a layout based upon the "Flying Scotsman" set, but I think that big Pacifics look strange pulling 3 coaches. If Hornby had a 0-6-0, 0-6-0T, 4-4-0 or 0-4-4T set I might not have been able to resist temptation.

If Simon Kohler is being accurate when he says that the new TT is aimed at people currently without layouts, then I think Hornby have a better chance than trying to get a lot of existing railway modellers to take up a new scale. One of my regrets with wargaming is have 15mm, 6mm and 25mm armies. If I was starting again I would have gone for 15mm and not looked at the other figure sizes.

[b308]

but I think that big Pacifics look strange pulling 3 coaches.

Quite right, should be two big Pacifics and two coaches!!

[Meister]

My guess is Hornby have looked hard into their crystal ball and come to the conclusion that relying on OO is not going to be profitable enough in the longer term. With major retailers now offering their own ranges and numerous new smaller players like Accurascale and Rapido to take an ever increasing chunk of Hornby sales they have decided to 'go big' on a new venture where Margate can rule the roost...

I feel you are right on the money! The scale of the Hornby TT announcement and proposed availability dates suggests some of the reason for the hold ups in Hornby's OO deliveries: they likely have given their TT launch some priority over the existing OO business.

As for 'ruling the roost', it has already begun: one significant competitor product proposal has already been abandoned in the face of the Hornby onslaught. I am interested to see just how far Hornby push this, my suspicion is that Hornby will want to 'manage the channel'; to a far greater extent than they can achieve in OO, where 'alternative views' on Hornby's product are widely available...

...Relying on direct sales (at least initially) will boost profitability and help to offset the huge initial investment. A risky move possibly but it might work if new entrants to the hobby opt for TT in significant numbers and some existing modellers decide to jump ship...

I have talked to a friend who has made a career in direct marketing, and he reckons Hornby are onto a good thing, provided the product performs. Bear in mind this isn't just the UK, but global: the fastest growing retail sector by value is people who buy most of their products and services online, and not coincidentally these same people have the deepest pockets. See something they like the look of, just buy it. So it's a 'few hundred' scale purchase whether in Dollars, Euro, Yen, Peso, etc.; only some of them have to find it fun and buy some more, show their friends online what they have bought this week (your customers do a lot of advertising for you!) and Hornby's biggest problem in TT could be supply...

And another thing: the 'signal to noise' ratio is high in this retail sector. Hornby will know within months of the product going on sale whether 'IT'S A WINNER!' : or it isn't going to fly, so quickiy bail out and cut your losses.

Glad you agree. I think we have to accept that direct sales are very much the way things are going. As with everything, there are pros and cons. My other modelling/collecting interest is handbuilt white metal model cars, and the main manufacturer of these (Brooklin Models of Bath) is no longer supplying dealers and relying on direct sales in future. I suppose it is the only way they can maintain profitability, invest in new tooling and continue to manufacture in the UK. Particularly so for such a niche market. The attraction of the TT scale is clear to see, and if I were starting from scratch it would be logical to go down the TT route. The thing is like many no doubt I am very much attached to my mixed bag of old (Lima, Wrenn, Airfix, Mainline etc.) and new and would not dream of changing scale now. A different story for beginners with no such baggage!

[centenary]

Gaugemaster have sent out an email, basically stuff you Hornby.

Following Hornby’s news that they have developed an expansive range of TT:120 products which they intend to supply exclusively via their own website, it makes little or no commercial sense for us to develop a complimentary range of products in this scale.

Gaugemaster are committed to supporting our crucial network of UK model and hobby retailers, who continue to be the backbone of our industry and an essential resource to the modelling community. It is difficult for us to see why UK dealers would want to stock a range of British TT products when nearly all the reward in this scale would be beyond their reach. We will continue to offer the large range of European TT products from brands such as Herpa, Noch, Piko, Preiser, Roco and Viessmann which have always been available for dealers to order, or to buy direct from ourselves.

Instead, we will continue to work independently and with partner brands across the more established scales such as OO, N and O to develop widely available new products. We will share details of these with you over the coming weeks.

Everyone here wishes our friends at Hornby all the very best of luck with their new venture and as modellers, we look forward to seeing their huge number of newly-announced TT:120 models emerge over the coming years.

[b308]

As far as I know the only things they'd announced were imported Continental items yet that says they are still doing them. I suppose they may have cancelled that loco they'd said they were going to do, but it wasn't clear who was making it for them and how far down the line manufacture was?

In other words we'll see if they are successful and if they are we'll come on later, letting Hornby take the risk, fair enough.

[End2end]

I'm not sure about Gaugemaster "undercutting retailers".
I go to the shop fairly regularly and, even online, they are usually the most expensive.
They never seem to have any deals on nor reduced items in the shop.

I received an email this morning from Oxford advertising their new TT range of auto models, but as Oxford is owned by Hornby. it's par for the course.
Thanks
End2end

[b308]

I've bough cheap stuff from them before, but a quick check (that'll teach me!) seems to show they don't undercut RRP anywhere like Rails, etc. So I've deleted that section.

[End2end]

Just as an aside, I noticed Gaugemaster has paralleled Hornby in buying up many smaller companies over the last few years.
I was looking at the Train-Tech website the other day only to be informed, now Gaugemaster owns the brand and to go to Gaugemaster's website for the range and purchasing.
Thanks
End2end

[RAF96]

GM has followed Heljan and bailed out of TT:120.

[D605Eagle]

but as Oxford is owned by Hornby. it's par for the course.

Not quite true as it's a bit complicated. A better way of saying it is both companies are owned by another