Derby Sulzer type 2, class 25/3 for OO

[Bigmet]

Heljan duplicating! Moving in on the 25/3 on the basis of work done for their O gauge product. This is pretty inevitable now that all the major diesel classes have models with decent mechanisms, there simply is nowhere else to go; and the Bachmann 25 has never been without critics of its appearance so probably a good choice in that respect. They will be offering the ETHEL train heating conversion too.

[luckymucklebackit]

Surprised that D7612 is not included as this is a preserved example, would have snapped that one up as it was the loco that hauled me on my first trip to Fort William in 1966, and therefore would have been appropriate for my layout. Maybe a later issue.

Jim

[Pennine MC]

Surprised that D7612 is not included as this is a preserved example,

There are about a dozen preserved examples

[Pennine MC]

... the Bachmann 25 has never been without critics of its appearance so probably a good choice in that respect.

First thoughts, in summary: interesting choice, but it's way past the ideal time for it.

Given that the original 24/25 are not really too difficult to improve on, anything launched say, 10 years back, might well have cleaned up. Now, it's a tough one. With prices well over £100, expectations are greater. Awareness of what the things actually look like is higher, in part due to Heljan's own 'flat fronted' 7mm version; and the roughly parallel development of Bachmann's own suite of replacements (late 24, plus both styles of 25) presents obvious competition. Very much a big dose of 'wait and see', methinks

[D605Eagle]

Didn't Bachmann recently announce a retooled version of the 25 coming soon(ish)? This seems a very brave move to me. I can't imagine there's much in the way of sales potential with this one, and going by Heljan's rather hit and miss record on getting models right this could a bit of a disaster.

[Bigmet]

I look at this slightly differently. The production diesel traction fleet is 'complete' in RTR OO in terms of decent models with good mechanisms either available or announced, and it is only the 21/29 and 59 to come on the announced list. So what to do if these have been your core products?

Until quite recently it has generally been very gentlemanly, Bachmann, Heljan and Hornby have largely avoided diesel duplications. But now there is nowhere else to go. Heljan seemingly can get by on smaller production volumes, demonstrated by hoovering up the lower sales volume subjects - protoypes and pilot scheme 'duds' and more recently small fry - so it is probably not too risky in terms of financial exposure to venture duplicating a small BoBo for which they already have the research done for an O gauge product.

The strategy looks very similar to Hattons class 66. A class with some following, and a good range of potential liveries all to be produced in a single run. See how that goes. If they sell out then rest and repeat. If they don't sell well enough, it was worth a look to see if it there was any future in it.

[Mike Parkes]

Didn't Bachmann recently announce a retooled version of the 25 coming soon(ish)? This seems a very brave move to me. I can't imagine there's much in the way of sales potential with this one, and going by Heljan's rather hit and miss record on getting models right this could a bit of a disaster.

Bachmann are doing the earlier versions
32-340 Class 25/1 25060 BR Blue Weathered
32-341 Class 25/2 D5282 BR Green Small Yellow Panel

[Bufferstop]

It will be interesting to see the pricing of an unmotored version for the ETHEL. It will still require a DCC socket and provision for sound, in fact I'd suggest it was a cert for sound as standard. We regularly had one stuck just out back of our studio for the layover in Stratford on Avon. Used to drive the sound technician bonkers. Wonder if he's still got the tapes with it on.

[Bigmet]

30% more for the motored 25 compared to the unmotored Ethel at the currently quoted £129/£99. Whether that ratio is maintained at whatever point the prices finish up on release is quite another question.

[Pennine MC]

Bachmann are doing the earlier versions
32-340 Class 25/1 25060 BR Blue Weathered
32-341 Class 25/2 D5282 BR Green Small Yellow Panel

D5282 is the same body style as the Heljan announcement (flat sides, cantrail level filters). 25060 is the earlier design with bodyside grilles

[D605Eagle]

Bachmann are doing the earlier versions
32-340 Class 25/1 25060 BR Blue Weathered
32-341 Class 25/2 D5282 BR Green Small Yellow Panel

D5282 is the same body style as the Heljan announcement (flat sides, cantrail level filters). 25060 is the earlier design with bodyside grilles

I was thinking there wasn't any difference externally between a /2 and /3

[Pennine MC]

[
I was thinking there wasn't any difference externally between a /2 and /3

Yeah, that's what a lot of people think Jim; or that a /2 has the grille infested sides and a /3 doesn't. And in some cases they'd be right, but it's not conclusive.

But think again - how many BR diesels were differentiated by subclass according to body differences? Folk think a 24/1 is a headcoded version - it might be, but it might not. Do 20s, or 37s, or 40s or 45s have subclasses according to their headcode type?

The 25/1, 25/2 and 25/3 designations relate to the electrical equipment. They were for the benefit of the operators, not us lot

Mind, it is a bit worrying when Heljan's Head of Ops doesn't seem to really know what they're making (my bold):

No plans to do any other Class 25 variants at the moment. Others are said to be looking at the earlier 25 body styles, and we wouldn't want to risk any accusations of duplication.

Ben

You already are Mr Jones, you already are...

[Mike Parkes]

25/0 D5151-D5175 25001-25025 Original body style with no roof horns
25/1 D5176-D5232 25026-25082 Original body style with roof horns to side of indicator box
25/2 D5233-D5299 25083-25149 Later body style
25/2 D7500-D7567 25150-25217 Later body style
25/2 D7568-D7597 25218-25247 Original body style with roof horns to side of indicator box
25/3 D7598-D7677 25248-25327 Later body style

Source:Modern Locomotive Illustrated 177 ( EDIT: 25026 altered to recognise it had roof horns despite description in MLI)

Heljans 2531 D5244 and 2537 25093 are 25/2s.

[D605Eagle]

But think again - how many BR diesels were differentiated by subclass according to body differences? Folk think a 24/1 is a headcoded version - it might be, but it might not. Do 20s, or 37s, or 40s or 45s have subclasses according to their headcode type?

24/0 and 24/1 relates to the electrical equipment. The 24/0 has a separate exciter on top of the main generator (like the class 15 does) where as the class 24/1 it's built in. All the preserved class 24s with the exception of D5032 are 24/1s. Bachmann still keep referring to the headcode one as a 24/1 but in reality they all ready make them.
The answer to your second question is no. There were no class 20, 37 or 40 sub classes when they were built. Not sure about the 45s mind you.

[D605Eagle]

25/0 D5151-D5175 25001-25025 Original body style with no roof horns
25/1 D5176 25026 Original body style with no roof horns
25/1 D5177-D5232 25027-25082 Original body style with roof horns to side of indicator box
25/2 D5233-D5299 25083-25149 Later body style
25/2 D7500-D7567 25150-25217 Later body style
25/2 D7568-D7597 25218-25247 Original body style with roof horns to side of indicator box
25/3 D7598-D7677 25248-25327 Later body style

Source:Modern Locomotive Illustrated 177

Heljans 2531 D5244 and 2537 25093 are 25/2s.

25/0s had flush fitting doors amongst other minor differences from 25/1s. I'm not sure about D5176, as that was an oddball.