Advice

Any questions about designing a model railway layout or problems with track work.
harris
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:49 pm

Advice

Postby harris » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:49 pm

Hi all and great to be a apart of a wonderful knowledge base.
I have been a lapsed collector of 00/ho railway models, track, locos, buildings etc etc and now taking the plunge to give them all a good dust and get them onto a layout. Not many things confuse me in life except "model railway electrics" so be prepared to be tortured.
I am looking at the layout below and my first newbie question is what do the dots denote - is the the wiring?
thanks
Image
I measure 5 times but still end up drilling twice

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Bufferstop
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Re: Advice

Postby Bufferstop » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:17 pm

Hi Harris welcome to the forum. First question is an easy one. The track plan is made from a sectional track range, the little circles indicate the joints between the sections. Just at the bottom of the clip you can see the name Hornby, so that layout was drawn using a library of symbols for Hornby sectional track. If you have access to the file and the planning software that produced it, it will label the sections with their part number (Hornby's all start with R) and will probably produce you a list of what is needed. Peco produce their own version which uses exactly the same range of sections, just with own numbers. They also do a range of different gauges, as flexible track, point and crossing sizes rail heights and sleeper types called "Streamiline".

John W
aka Bufferstop
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
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harris
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Re: Advice

Postby harris » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:22 pm

hi
thanks - I only want to run 2 locos on this with analogue - At what intervals do I need to wire the track?
I do plan to wire the points with switches eventually.
Harris
I measure 5 times but still end up drilling twice

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Bufferstop
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Re: Advice

Postby Bufferstop » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:03 pm

First a question about the plan. there are two tracks running to the edge at bottom right. Without any extension they look to be about long enough fas a loco headshunt but not to get a whole train in or out. Also is the crossing merely a diamond crossing, or a double/single slip allowing access to the line which it crosses. With those questions answered you can proceed to how it will be wired. The loop round from the bottom right point past the sidings top right and back to the original point forms a "reverse loop" which requires careful thought when wiring up. Starting bottom right facing left, the left hand rail will eventually connect to the right hand rail. This cannot happen unless at some point in the journey the track connections to the loop, or those to the end spur are reversed. With a little thought if you know how you want a train to proceed then it can be wired up to do it with no more than a switch tied to the operation of that point, but it does need resolving pretty early in the process. Apart from the question of should you use the nattural isolating action of set track points, or should you wire extra switches to do it for you I wouldn't do any more wiring than the bare minimum to make it work. If you are going to convert it to DCC later then it would be worth putting in the extra wiring.
Under some fault conditions the point bldes may be required to switch or conduct the full output of the power supply, with DCC that can be upwards of 3 amps unless there are other paths for the current to flow, so you need that extra wiring, with DC it's only going to be 1.0 -1.5 max. and it's not a disaster if a loco loses power occasionally.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions

harris
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Re: Advice

Postby harris » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:16 pm

thanks John
1. Bottom right is ok as I could extend in the future.
2. It will be a diamond crossing
I measure 5 times but still end up drilling twice

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Flashbang
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Re: Advice

Postby Flashbang » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:47 pm

AS Bufferstop (John) clearly states, you have a reverse loop.
This is where the one handed rail ends up meeting the opposite rail after going around the loop.
This reverse loop has to be isolated to prevent a short circuit occurring. This is normally done by installing four Insulated Rail Joiners (Nylon Fishplates) in place of the metal ones. Then between the entrance pair of IRJs and the exit pair the rtail power is controlled via a Double Pole Double Throw switch either manually thrown or by adding a DPDT switch to the point leading into the loop.
On DCC layouts this can be taken care of by fitting a Reverse Loop Module or using a dual Frog Juicer.

Some typical wiring examples of a DC reverse loop are shown here... Link to examples
and for the DCC user here... Link to DCC example Note a DPDT point or manual switch can also be used on DCC.
Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

harris
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Re: Advice

Postby harris » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:00 pm

Thanks - will get working on it and report back
Cheers
I measure 5 times but still end up drilling twice

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Emettman
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Re: Advice

Postby Emettman » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:53 pm

Hello and welcome, Harris..
That's an interesting if not odd plan, as it has two sections of unconnected track, and I'm not sure at first look how the return loop add to the shunting...

I found the Hornby (number) (letter ) plans listed and shown here:
http://www.freetrackplans.com/Hornby-Plans.php

If a shunting layout is what you are looking for, something more interesting could probably be found even taking up less space, or in that space sidings could be included but with an oval for continuous running.

Not to say what you should do, but to offer a range of available options.
Chris
"It's his madness that keeps him sane."

harris
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Re: Advice

Postby harris » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:03 pm

hi
I only have 6' x 3.5' to work with so any other possibilities I would consider
thanks
I measure 5 times but still end up drilling twice

kebang
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Re: Advice

Postby kebang » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:45 am

I think your original plan is using radius 1 curves. I suspect some of your collection will be unable to negotiate these. Here is an alternative plan in the same space. also with a reverse loop but using radius 2 curves. Suggested power points are shown. These are fed from 2 separate controllers. It's posssible that the could also be fed from a single controller through a reverse loop module (Can someone help me here - do these modules only work with DCC or will they also work with DC?).
6x3.5.jpg
6x3.5.jpg (145.24 KiB) Viewed 910 times

Part numbers for Peco Settrack are shown, but of course Hornby or Bachmann set track can also be used, the geometry for all the pieces shown here are identical (although Hornby do not make a 3.1in straight)

kebang
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Re: Advice

Postby kebang » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:50 am

If I remember correctly the Hornby 9F plan was a modular drawing. The suggestion was this could be combined with other modular units.
Here is a re-drawing of it ensuring radius 2 curves are used throughout, with the exception of a single R608 in the bottom left of the layout. This R608 is used to allow exact alignment of the track. This layout (as well as the original) requires 3 power feeds. Common practise is to use plastic isolation rail joiners to create different sections of track, but the Hornby plan achieved this by using 2 x R618 isolating straights (a far more expensive option!).
hornby9F rad2.jpg
hornby9F rad2.jpg (128.13 KiB) Viewed 902 times

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Emettman
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Re: Advice

Postby Emettman » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:08 pm

I would like to agree with and support kebang's comments in the last two posts.

Definitely no R1 curves if R2 curves are feasible.
Including an oval is almost certainly going to be a positive feature.

On the layout with the oval it is possible to set up the return loop to operate with no switches at all, provided it is used only in one direction (its principal value would be to turn tender engines)
It just needs four diodes (doesn't work for DCC)

Chris.
"It's his madness that keeps him sane."

b308
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Re: Advice

Postby b308 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:22 pm

It's worth looking at why we have reverse loops. Normally they are used on end to end layouts in order for the train to leave the station and then return to the station as if it's been on a journey, reverse loops replace a "fiddle yard" and although they take up more space and complicate the wiring they do make life easier...

Having said that I can't think of any reason to build that layout as it stands, if to attach to another baseboard where the lines "go somewhere" I can see a reason but as it stands it's a "nothing" layout as there's no operating potential at all.

Sorry to be blunt but if that's all the space you have then I'd suggest Kebang's effort makes a lot more sense, though I wouldn't bother with the reverse loop as if you have sidings set out like that it serves no purpose other than to turn a tender loco!

I'd hate to see you build it as it stands and then find yourself bored with it after 5 minutes!

harris
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Re: Advice

Postby harris » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:51 pm

All
Appreciate the advice will consider the Oval and report back
thanks
I measure 5 times but still end up drilling twice

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End2end
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Re: Advice

Postby End2end » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:40 pm

I had a quick play with the diagram just basically flipping it and joining it upto a loop. (top diagram)
Then I changed the rear sidings to passing loops/ train storage (bottom diagram)
I quickly did this in photoshop so it would need proper planning in track design software to see what pieces of track are needed.
Perhaps the double track at the bottom or one of the side set of orange sidings could become a station?
hornby9F rad2E2E.jpg
hornby9F rad2E2E.jpg (197.33 KiB) Viewed 859 times

Just throwing around ideas.
Thanks
End2end
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