HS II - Shunting with Kadees

[Dad-1]

Not exactly HS2, but it'll cost a lot less and be finished before the
first sod is cut on the prototype names sake.

This is a collaboration between my local buddy Derek and myself, as in fact
was 'Thomas and friends visit Bride Bay'.
We get frustrated by the clubs inactivity on any ideas. Committee builds take
for ever to get off the ground, everyone wants their ideas supported, getting
authority on finance very ponderous. The only thing everyone agrees on is that
we need more potential running space & time on club nights.

Enter..... The Dynamic Duo ....... Nothing's a problem !!

HS2, or HS II is a Happy Shunting layout, design 1 was a prototype and test-bed
loosely plugged together on the kitchen worktop. Based on the customary two
point, 3 siding Inglenook shunting puzzle.

Our Mk.I worked O.K, so a few basic requirements have been drawn up. Wiring
kept simple for a one locomotive in steam principal, will take either Analogue, or
DCC. We prefer DCC as we're looking for the fine very low speed control it usually
offers. Code 100 track with live-frog points, we contemplated code 75, but as we
already had everything needed in code 100 and being slightly more robust for club
use gave it the edge.



A locomotive already ordered by me - Bachmann early BR 1F
Suitable 6 pin decoder and Kadee couplings by Derek.

Watch this space after Xmas ....... Derek is the woodwork man and away over Christmas.

Geoff >t

[Bufferstop]

Where are you going to put this one Geoff, you must be running out of space by now? Look forward to watching the build, will there be the usual little twist to the scenario?

John W

[Dad-1]

Hi Bufferstop,

It's being built for the Bridport & District club and we intend to store in the village hall cellar
although all stock will be stored at home. We will keep ownership, but want it to be used by
all and sundry with perhaps the club being persuaded to buy a locomotive and 5 suitable
wagons later if it gets used enough.
Derek wants us to experiment with Kaydee couplings although I have reservations and think
working with one end magnetic hook and a Magic Wand will be more adaptable. Working with
Kadees will certainly be new to me although I have driven an exhibition layout with them.

I don't know if it'll be interesting, but it will be a table-top layout. As VERY free rolling wagons
will move probably too easily unless absolutely level I'm planning a permanently built in bulls-eye
spirit level. I also fancy two of the small feet being adjustable to obtain that level track. It needs
feet as many tables found in halls have reinforced edges with a raised lip and we need to clear
those possible obstructions.

The two points operated by rod from the front to simplify. We have measured the width of my
car back seat, that comes out at 50". The original plan said it could be squeezed into 48", we
have decided on 1250 mm, or 49.1/4". Unless it's used at any local club exhibitions it shouldn't
need to move about much.

Derek is the woodworker and I have yet to persuade him to have a hinged back scene that will fold
forwards to act as the top of an enclosing box to protect most of the layout scenery. So much
planning to do, but this is something I enjoy doing. I hope we can pack into 1250 x 450 x 200.

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

Hi Dave,

I'd have said Too many cooks, but if it's 4 of them, well they're just dreamers and will never succeed.
I hate committee builds a small energetic and dedicated group is needed, sometimes even a one
mad man can achieve more through focused effort - Hell YOU of all people should know that !! (As do I)

We're lucky that money & time are not hurdles we have to worry about. Not wanting to keep the layout
at home means making certain we can find enough space in the cellar, but IF push comes to Shove we
know we can keep either at his place, or mine. When I say money and time are as nothing it's because
we're both retired and this is a low cost exercise anyway, but the few hundred that we could perhaps
spend on 5 dedicated Kaydee fitted wagons, a new 0-6-0 loco and all our timber requirements is peanuts.

Tomorrow I should be getting my roll of 20" wide brown paper up from the shed to start 1:1 drawings.

Geoff T.

[Bufferstop]

Can't beat full size drawings, nothing beats finding the fouling points like trying it with the stock it will have to take. A number of people have commented on the fact that it's just possible to run round a four coach rake in my platform roads. I tried it out often enough on my roll of lining paper.

[Admin4]

i was planning on printing my plans out full size so i could use them to help me cut up the MDF, only issue was it turned out to be something like 40 sheets of A3 paper not sure the boss would have liked that!


it sounds like an interesting project and i look forward to following its progress.

[carnehan]

Your ability to develop multiple layouts continues to astound me Geoff. As you are aware, I'm struggling with the one! This looks like another interesting project and I look forward to its development next year.

Paul

[Dad-1]

Hi Paul,

I wish I could fully finish before I roll into the next project.
Still the Bachmann 1F arrived today, but as Derek's away for a few days
& I can't get the decoder until he returns.
In fact all on hold because we don't know what length we'll get with Kadees
fitted to the planned wagons. On that depends where the points will be
fixed - O.K we know within say an inch, but no cutting track until certain.
Again Derek bought the Kadees. I have no doubt we'll have to experiment
as to where we fix the magnets

We'll need a good discussion when he gets back .... I've got a sheet with
lists of details we need to clear before beginning. Hell this was going to
be a simple fast build ........

Geoff T.

[carnehan]

Will he succumb to the '2-2-Toot Scenic Adventure" I ask myself - Link

I am semi tempted

Everyone should succumb to the 2-2-Toot Adventure.

Paul

[Dad-1]

I had contemplated adding HSII only ......
I have so much going on we'd probably fail by a month, or so
regarding the finishing time.
I'm helping running a layout at the West Camel Club on 31st December
Running 'Thomas' at the Bridport clubs Beaminster exhibition 14th January
Then there is the Milton Keynes exhibition on February 18th
It tends to reduce building opportunities.

Never a dull moment though.

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

We have had our Christmas & New Year break and today I was checking out
the framework of the baseboard. Particularly with regard to it's space requirement.
It will easily fit both the back seat of my car and Derek's. This checking is an
essential for anything you intend moving about !!

We have decide on a left hand track layout and I'm now about to cut track as well
as changing my points so a working test can be laid out. We are both 'New' to Kaydee
couplings and have to accommodate the magnets, leaving enough space to re-couple
before wagons are rammed against the stops !!

Next time some pictures ......

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

Even now HSII is light years ahead of HS2, but we have had a slow start.

While Derek works on the fancy baseboard, wait until you see the lid fold !!
I have at last all the magnets and Kadee couplings. We have a test board to
try magnet locations and strength. The other quite difficult thing is setting
Kadees up to work reliably.
Here was the first magnet test.



This uncoupled too near the V of tracks causing fouling. Then onto this, just
the odd extra sleepers gap.



After one more small change of magnet placing I thought we had it about right.
BUT, always at least a couple of them !! The uncoupling was unreliable and the magnetic
tails were dragging on the between the rails magnets. We have some Kadee pliars to
adjust, but it's a very imprecise tool and even when none of those tails dragged we
still had a problem.



It would seem that the off-centre mounting of any NEM pocket, even so small that tension
locks work perfectly can cause problems. Too free a rolling stock also presents difficulties
although weigh seems to have little influence.
I even had one Kadee out of the packet where the spring had become dislodged, these are
VERY small and should you drop on the floor I doubt that you'd ever find, I did keep all on
the table ... this time.
We have 3 magnets, the two between tracks and one big heavy magnet countersunk into the
board and under some mounting board. It is still so strong that it draws a wagon along making
uncoupling difficult. We will increase the depth with additional packing until we get the results
we want.
Were it not for our aim of having no Hand of God I think the Magic Wand method would be far
superior in functional reliability and at very low cost !!

We have however just started this journey ..........

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

Playing with magnetism ......

I've not tried yet, but was thinking on how magnetic material wheels may influence the pull
being transmitted to the Kadees tail ? And the magnets drawing a wagon along ?
I will try a 'newer standards' Hornby plastic wheel-set, but interesting tests with my small 3 x 3 mm
neo magnets. First all metal wheels tested so far are of a very low magnetic steel, just enough for
a neo magnet to stay attached. The normal axles are highly magnetic on both Bachmann and Dapol
wagons. Interestingly the axle in my plastic wheel-set is again just magnetic, I think anything weaker
then a neo magnet wouldn't hold on.

It's almost as if the track magnets are not strong enough to pull the Kadees open. So another future test
will be adding additional magnetic mass to a Kadees tail.
I did have one coupling that didn't want to open, exchanged with another new coupling and it did work,
that points to some manufacturing variances in the Kadees, drag on a plastic moulded seam ?

Later I shall be trying the plastic wheels in a lightweight van, one where the fitted coupling is reluctant
to move and it was drawn along the track. I can see this is going to be a long learning curve.

Back to pondering ............

Geoff T.

[pointstaken]

Geoff T.,

Apart from the effects on couplers of your magnetic personality (grin !), I did see a posting on another forum recommending the use of the Kadee height gauge. Just wondered if this might minimise any problems you might have,

Dennis

[Dad-1]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for the suggestion.

If I though their height gauge would do much I'd have one BUT, Ahh those BUTS again !!
Bachmann stuff is good ......... to a degree. What I have found recently is that the NEM
pocket fishtail is very loose in some wagons and even fall out during use. This is why I have
one of our club's old very much non-engineering mindset members wagons to sort out.
Now how can you set the height if the pocket shuffles lower during use ? This is true for
either Kadee, or standard tension lock couplings. My wagon working for him has also involved
replacing some hooks, and getting various often old dissimilar couplings working together,
matching height being one of the key settings.

We have differing problems with various wagons, not only Bachmann and the coming loose and
sinking lower, but Dapol where their NEM pockets tend to sag anyway and the magnets pull the
whole coupling sideways, rather than just the coupling head. Even one pocket needed changing
as the Kadee snap-in was so loose it could move excessively sideways.

It seems to be a bit of a Black Art, but getting a magnetic tail at the right and consistent location
can only happen when all these other variables are removed. MK.I eyeball with a piece of card on
the magnet should allow allow for accurate final adjustment .......... I Hope

Nobody said it would be easy !! In fact my buddy Derek gave-up on Kadees once already, but I
don't like being beaten by some little pieces of metal & plastic.
In some warped ways it can be more fun than watching trains running around !!

Geoff T.