Western Region BG coaches in a mail/parcel train

[GWR_fan]

Given the Western Region's preference for full brake coaches (BG) in lieu of a brake coach (BSK?), would a brown/cream BG have been used on a mail/parcel train? As mainline stock in the Western Region was only painted brown/cream for named express trains, then I assume that there would not have been a surplus of brown/cream full brake coaches.

Tim

[Bigmet]

The inevitable question is whether any BG's were even painted brown and cream on BR(WR) at all? That's the first thing to find out.

With only a relatively small pool of brown and cream liveried coaches intended for BR(WR) premium services, there will have been quite an effort to keep these vehicles on the operating diagrams they were intended for, while this was the special livery. But, 'never say never' of the steam operated railway; if the vehicles existed, it is a fair bet that at least one will have 'got away' at some point.

[Karhedron]

Some MK1 BGs were painted in chocolate and cream. In fact the SR nicked a couple of them to run with their Pullman trains since there were no Pullman BGs and they decided the WR chocolate and cream was close enough to Pullman livery to make a match.

I have not seen any photos of them in parcels trains but that is not to say it did not happen as the matching sets got broken up in the early 60s. By "mail trains" are you reffering to TPOs? These tended to use older pre-nationalisation BGs.

[GWR_fan]

Thankyou for the info supplied. My emphasis was more on parcel trains. I would have thought that only a minimum number of BG's would have received the brown/cream livery so in general would not have been surplus for parcel trains in the late 1950s. Apparently, the WR was very quick to remove the brown/cream livery very early in the 1960s so this would further reduce the possibility of finding the full brakes on a parcel train. The thing is that I have a surplus of brown/cream BG's and wanted to find a use for them.

Tim

[Bigmet]

Cover them in filth Tim! The nature of the parcels and newspaper formations, operated day in-day out at passenger speeds around the network, but typically not going anywhere near carriage washing plant led to these becoming filthy, mainly with brake and track dust. You really couldn't see the livery at all on vehicles that were long term on this traffic.

[6C]

TBH Tim - the full Mk1 BGs were uncommon in parcels trains - in choc/cream times - as there where plenty of pre-grouping BGs and GUVs, MINKs, Siphons etc - to use in parcel train makeup.

Later on in the 1970s - BGs were seen in parcel trains - particularly the newspaper trains - but even then there were still plenty of BR Bogie GUVs for these trains.

HTH
Pete

[GWR_fan]

Looks like I need more GUVs and less Mk1 BGs. In model form it looks like I need to find some ex-LMS 50 foot brake vans, some Thompson and Gresley full brake vans. It seems the old Airfix/Dapol Siphons have seen a resurgence in popularity as their prices rise to meet the newly released Hornby tooled 'GW' siphons. I should have picked up more BR sipons when the opportunity arose some years ago.

Tim

[6C]

Looks like I need more GUVs and less Mk1 BGs. In model form it looks like I need to find some ex-LMS 50 foot brake vans, some Thompson and Gresley full brake vans.
Tim

Yep - I came to the same conclusion - when trying to recreate a Birkenhead - Shrewsbury parcels train - circa 1959.

Siphons, odd ex-LNER full brake - often seen in the formation, ex-LMS bogie brakes of both 50ft and 42ft and the odd ex-SR CCT/Utility Van.

[Pennine MC]

... It seems the old Airfix/Dapol Siphons have seen a resurgence in popularity as their prices rise to meet the newly released Hornby tooled 'GW' siphons.

It should have the opposite effect - I set myself a loose limit of a tenner last year for an outside framed 'G', and I dont think I exceeded it. Mind, pricing at swapmeets can be 'interesting' if you dont look around...

, ex-LMS bogie brakes of both 50ft and 42ft ...

The 42ft van isnt a brake, it's a GUV (or bogie CCT, if you prefer). The 50 footers were very common, something in the order of 1500 built, I would think.

[Bigglesof266]

The inevitable question is whether any BG's were even painted brown and cream on BR(WR) at all? That's the first thing to find out. <snip> ....if the vehicles existed, it is a fair bet that at least one will have 'got away' at some point.

There is a reference source I revisited the other day, so the fact of itself is fresh in mind -pretty sure it's on David Hey's fascinating but extensive site although I can't be absolutely certain it wasn't SEmG or even elsewhere without chasing it down, to two BR (GWR) Mk1 BGs resplendent in chocolate and cream livery having been seconded by BR (SR) for use on "The Bournemouth Belle" when the older Pullman Brakes were being withdrawn due to age related OOS unavailability. Subsequently they remained with that train as part of its regular formation until the eventual termination of the service in 1967. I have seen the digitised image of an original photo (with rebuilt MN) which at least confirms that at some time in the 1960's this = true.

I deploy them on my Warship headed "The Cornish Riviera Express" formation. Ian Allan's "BR Western Region in Colour" by Laurence Waters has pic/s (?) of that named express consisting of near pristine Warships both with and without yellow warning panels leading formations of Mk1 coaches either all in BR (GWR) chocolate and cream or in the latter case, predominantly so.

So the question can be answered that at some time post nationalisation, at least (i) some Mk1 BGs were painted in chocolate and cream in BR (GWR) service, presumably in the post 1956 return to those colours in Western Region for deployment on named expresses. (ii) They were deployed outside BR WR at least in the limited capacity already mentioned. Although I am given to understand from my recall as I have read that was not general practice, and their 'secondment' required a special request and permission subsequently granted about which BR WR were none too happy.

Can't provide any insight into the aspect of the OP's question as to their general or specific inclusion in mail/parcel trains.

[stuartp]

Looks like I need more GUVs and less Mk1 BGs.

Not too many BR Mk 1 GUVs for the late 50s, they were only introduced in 1956/7. I would have thought a WR parcels train would have a fair proportion of Syphons in it as well as other pre-nationalisation designs (Bachmann, Lima, Aifix, various sub-types). The LMS 50-footers got everywhere, the 42 footers were less common. If it's been anywhere near the LMR it would most likely have 12t vans in it as well as the LM regularly rostered more parcels vans than it had on hand and had to make up the shortfall. (It was also notorious for holding on to other regions' vans for the same reason, which is great for LM modellers as their parcels trains were even more cosmopolitan than the usual random mix of stock).

If it's just a case of finding something to do with surplus chocolate and cream stock, the Bachmann Mk1 can be completely dismantled in much the same way as the old Tri-ank Mk1s could be but with more finesse and less obvious joins. If you strip it right down and gently rub down the printed lining and lettering with a fibreglass pen it's a straightforward job to respray it in plain BR Crimson without lining. They got the later maroon too but that was fully lined and the Bachmann BG is a complete pig to line (with transfers or a mapping pen) as all the door furniture gets in the way. Modelmaster and Cambridge both do made up number sets for BGs.

[Karhedron]

two BR (GWR) Mk1 BGs resplendent in chocolate and cream livery having been seconded by BR (SR) for use on "The Bournemouth Belle" when the older Pullman Brakes were being withdrawn due to age related OOS unavailability. Subsequently they remained with that train as part of its regular formation until the eventual termination of the service in 1967. I have seen the digitised image of an original photo (with rebuilt MN) which at least confirms that at some time in the 1960's this = true.

This one perhaps?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... ksbank.jpg

[Bigglesof266]

This one perhaps?

No a different one. In colour, with the chocolate and cream clearly distinguishable as such alongside the accompanying Pullmans rather than a B&W pic in contrasting shades. I specifically recall that said Mk1 BG was immediately behind the MN tender with a PFB or PSB coach immediately behind it.