Steam loco choice ?

[Bigmet]

... The trouble with both these classes is that none were preserved, which seems to sometimes have a bearing on the manufacturers choice of models to make.

While it definitely doesn't hurt, and a preserved specimen or two still working is undoubtedly a further attraction, it has not proved an obstacle to many now extinct classes being represented in model form*. What the manufacturer is looking for first is whether it will yield the target return on investment.

And of course there are beautiful preserved specimens still without models. No GNR Klondike, LNWR Jumbo, LT&SR Whitelegg tank, NER Q 4-4-0 (LNER D17) or Tennant 2-4-0, NLR 0-6-0T, GER E4, J17 or J69, to name a few; most of which enjoyed some celebrity. (Those are what my 'Northern going' railway interest focusses on, there are plenty more yet.) I reckon most of these, and plenty more classes without preserved examples, are in with a good chance so long as our willingness to shell out the cash holds up!


*Rather glad of this. No preserved specimens of Pepp A1, A2/2. A2/3, B17, D16, J11, J39, J50, K3, L1, O1, O2, P2, V1, V3, W1: yet all have or are getting RTR OO models; which adds variety to my KX area ECML operation, and allows me to get on with building types that are never going to get models.

[CasperGriswoldBacon]

I think more and more obscure loco's will appear over time with the emphasis on distinctive designs that made it into BR times and that is definitely the way they're going judging from things like the W1. Obviously if you're someone who's modelling the York to Beverly line 1958-61 (sundays only) then you're going to be of limited long term value to the manufacturers as once you've got the classes you need, then you're only going to be buying replacements when they self-destruct, while people who can't resist a good looking loco whatever their layout is based on are those who they need to part with their money. And the collectors of course. Tank engines and 0-6-0 tender loco's with 100 odd locos like the Hornby J15 fills a gap I guess, but it's not gonna excite anyone other than someone modelling that area. Someone mentioned the Southern K class which does stand out as a 2-6-0 or a Hughes Dreadnaught that does really stand out among 4-6-0s even if they were a bit duff. I also have a kit built model MSWJ 2-4-0 which lasted to the mid-50's which I think would probably persuade many a GWR fanatic to go a bit off-prototype to accommodate a RTR version if it came out. Or the Great Eastern 2-4-0's. Absolutely loads of eye-catching classes with sales potential, but I can't see them bothering going through every bog standard large shunter and freight engine class unless they plan to stop charging silly money for them.

[Bigmet]

I think more and more obscure loco's will appear over time with the emphasis on distinctive designs that made it into BR times, and that is definitely the way they're going judging from things like the W1...

Two in that group with no announcements to date that somewhat surprise me, the Lickey banker and WD 2-10-0. Judging by sales of Evening star and 9F's in general, lots of little wheels hold great appeal. And since Hornby have the most of it to hand in their Princess, I'd also think the Turbomotive must be a natural follow on once the standard Princess sales drop off, much as they used their Brit as the basis for the Clan.

Absolutely loads of eye-catching classes with sales potential, but I can't see them bothering going through every bog standard large shunter and freight engine class unless they plan to stop charging silly money for them...

Without a doubt, there will be a lot of focus on the prettier specimens! But there are still some surprising gaps amongst the more ordinary subjects. Nothing, quite literally, from any of the absorbed lines within the GWR, like the MSWJ 2-4-0 you mention. A massive hole in representation of CR, LNWR, L&Y, NBR, and NER subjects, all of them sizeable enterprises that were integral to large areas of the Big Two and BR systems; and with plentiful 'pretty specimens' potential too. The price, well we might see the RTR industry relocate to the next developing economy opportunity, Vietnam looks a hot favourite.

... Obviously if you're someone who's modelling the York to Beverly line 1958-61 (sundays only) then you're going to be of limited long term value to the manufacturers as once you've got the classes you need, then you're only going to be buying replacements when they self-destruct...

Then again, there is the fidget tendency, which I feel is not only a better bet but pretty common among railway modellers. "I got fed up with the way my OO 14xx didn't work on my Ashbustleigh BLT. So I went O gauge but that was equally a problem, because with two autotrailers for the summer traffic I only had 3 foot of running line left unoccupied and the train never completely got off the platform. Then I tried a fictitious GWR narrow gauge layout including some rack railway sections serving Selworthy, Porlock, Exford and Wooten, with its standard gauge connection at Minehead, in the end that had to go because people kept telling me that even Brunel wouldn't have tried that. Then we moved house and I had rather more space, so I went back to OO and am now building a model of Southall ... Etc..'"

More chance of sales that way I feel, than relying on owners buying replacements. (There's real resistance there! Lost count of how many posts I have seen over the years asking for help repairing thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, year old worn out or broken mechanism designs for which there are no new manufacturer spares, because they have all been long made obsolete by superior designs.)

And we haven't yet read of someone collapsing his house under the weight of a model railway collection, time yet for that to happen I suppose. Some dealers are a little nervous about what happens when the flood of the last 20 years sales begins to emerge on the s/h market. Will impatient families send most of it to landfill/recycling, or will there be mountains of it on line, on exhibtion trade stalls and retailer's s/h cabinets?

[luckymucklebackit]

There was a rumour that when the Hornby guys visited Bo'ness to measure up the J36, they also did another loco, my money would be on 419, and would expect the 0-4-4 to appear soon, especially if the Rails Caley 828 does as well as expected.

Jim

[Bigmet]

For a good looking blue liveried CR 'follow on' to the 812 0-6-0, the likely choice lies between the McIntosh Dunalastair IV 4-4-0, and one of the McIntosh 0-4-4T's. From this selection I think you would be right in betting on the 439 class, as these survived longest in decent numbers, and were well known for helping Duchesses both get started, and to keep going up Beattock, to near the end of steam. (And from Cowlairs, Hornby might next look at a Reid 4-4-0, since they have a really good 4-4-0 mechanism. My fingers crossed for a Glen, (D34), last in service, and a little unusual as a mixed traffic machine unlike most 4-4-0s which had the big wheels for speed; and again, pretty withal.)

[CasperGriswoldBacon]

I think more and more obscure loco's will appear over time with the emphasis on distinctive designs that made it into BR times, and that is definitely the way they're going judging from things like the W1...

Two in that group with no announcements to date that somewhat surprise me, the Lickey banker and WD 2-10-0. Judging by sales of Evening star and 9F's in general, lots of little wheels hold great appeal. And since Hornby have the most of it to hand in their Princess, I'd also think the Turbomotive must be a natural follow on once the standard Princess sales drop off, much as they used their Brit as the basis for the Clan.

Yes, I always thought the established consensus was the big sellers would be prototypes that survived into the 60's and got around a bit. That's been well and truly blown out the water by things like the P2 which is useless to anyone modelling anything other than 12 years on the Edinburgh and Aberdeen route. The lickey banker is even more obscure so i'm guessing they're not really going for the serious modeller there. As you say...lots of wheels.


s

Absolutely loads of eye-catching classes with sales potential, but I can't see them bothering going through every bog standard large shunter and freight engine class unless they plan to stop charging silly money for them...

Without a doubt, there will be a lot of focus on the prettier specimens! But there are still some surprising gaps amongst the more ordinary subjects. Nothing, quite literally, from any of the absorbed lines within the GWR, like the MSWJ 2-4-0 you mention. A massive hole in representation of CR, LNWR, L&Y, NBR, and NER subjects, all of them sizeable enterprises that were integral to large areas of the Big Two and BR systems; and with plentiful 'pretty specimens' potential too. The price, well we might see the RTR industry relocate to the next developing economy opportunity, Vietnam looks a hot favourite.

Yes, loads that fit into the looker/something different Category. I was looking at Hornby's current range, and I do wonder how much they sell of some of them beyond those that are modelling a certain era/location or the collectors. If you want an 0-6-0 tender loco would you go for a J15 or J36 in their variety of black liveries and similar looks, or would you go for the Q1 if you had no preference and wanted something different or a Bachmann C class in lined green if you wanted pretty. I supposed they must know their market you'd hope, but you could come up with a large list of pre-grouping locos that would fit in either of the pretty/different category AND survived into the 50's/60s.

... Obviously if you're someone who's modelling the York to Beverly line 1958-61 (sundays only) then you're going to be of limited long term value to the manufacturers as once you've got the classes you need, then you're only going to be buying replacements when they self-destruct...

Then again, there is the fidget tendency, which I feel is not only a better bet but pretty common among railway modellers. "I got fed up with the way my OO 14xx didn't work on my Ashbustleigh BLT. So I went O gauge but that was equally a problem, because with two autotrailers for the summer traffic I only had 3 foot of running line left unoccupied and the train never completely got off the platform. Then I tried a fictitious GWR narrow gauge layout including some rack railway sections serving Selworthy, Porlock, Exford and Wooten, with its standard gauge connection at Minehead, in the end that had to go because people kept telling me that even Brunel wouldn't have tried that. Then we moved house and I had rather more space, so I went back to OO and am now building a model of Southall ... Etc..'"

Yes, after I posted originally I realised I forgot about those that the actual building of the lay-out is the main thing, and once completed will start on the next project with obviously a new set of locomotives.

More chance of sales that way I feel, than relying on owners buying replacements. (There's real resistance there! Lost count of how many posts I have seen over the years asking for help repairing thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, year old worn out or broken mechanism designs for which there are no new manufacturer spares, because they have all been long made obsolete by superior designs.)

And we haven't yet read of someone collapsing his house under the weight of a model railway collection, time yet for that to happen I suppose. Some dealers are a little nervous about what happens when the flood of the last 20 years sales begins to emerge on the s/h market. Will impatient families send most of it to landfill/recycling, or will there be mountains of it on line, on exhibtion trade stalls and retailer's s/h cabinets?

I'm not so sure that many of the current models will survive 20+ years. Yes you get those that are mint which will command top dollar, but looking from a detached perspective in that I don't buy new locos, a lot of manufacturers seem to have crossed the line between an superbly accurate model and a practical one. So many I see on places like youtube that come out of the box broken or faulty. Undoubtably more accurate and pretty that their Hornby/Mainline/Airfix/Wrenn/Lima ancestors but very breakable so I expect a flood of damaged/worn-out models in 2030 or those with known issues that affect the price. The last week I've watched a video on the Dapol Terrier where a brand new example had a warped running plate and derailed every time on the track, and three (3!) Bachmann Halls where the wheel gauge on them was so hopelessly out of spec that they couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding, and they ground to a halt on curves. If I wanted temperamental locos with bits that fall off I can spend £30-50 on an old loco, detail it myself! and save 100-150 quid!

[Bigmet]

...I'm not so sure that many of the current models will survive 20+ years. Yes you get those that are mint which will command top dollar, but looking from a detached perspective in that I don't buy new locos, a lot of manufacturers seem to have crossed the line between an superbly accurate model and a practical one. So many I see on places like youtube that come out of the box broken or faulty. Undoubtably more accurate and pretty than their Hornby/Mainline/Airfix/Wrenn/Lima ancestors but very breakable so I expect a flood of damaged/worn-out models in 2030 or those with known issues that affect the price...

For sure there will be a very mixed bag on offer second hand - I am already buying when an item I can use is available in acceptable state for reasonable money - but knowledge of the model is key. I simply won't buy those with 'life limiting' or known weak or vulnerable mechanism constructions, or that are poor representations of the prototype.

But a s/h item on offer with known faults such as an easily rectified defect in the electrical circuit, compromised for traction by poor springing or weight distribution, or faults in appearance due to assembly errors: these are meat and drink to me. (A Bachmann A1 for £40, slow and won't pull, with 'cab droop' and front bogie detached: I'll have that, and quickly sorted out it now bombs along my mainline with 14 on.)

Detached detail, often not concerned, provided the bits were retrieved and come with. (A good example is that I have steadily hoovered up s/h the Cravens class 105's made by Bachmann, that my KX area operation requires. It's so easy to knock off the underside detail on these, but also so very easy to cement it back on invisibly and permanently; and the cost saving this produces is a very good trade!)

Even those with mazak rot! I have repowered my Airfix GMR Brush type 2 bodies, which are significantly more accurate in appearance than Hornby's, by purchasing very cheap Hornby Brush 2 mechanisms crumbling due to mazak rot. Nothing wrong with the running and appearance, and a little brutal work fits them into the bodyshell very easily. The drive train alone is worth the money paid, and should the main casting totally fail I can transplant it onto a built up brass channel substitute.

[CasperGriswoldBacon]

...I'm not so sure that many of the current models will survive 20+ years. Yes you get those that are mint which will command top dollar, but looking from a detached perspective in that I don't buy new locos, a lot of manufacturers seem to have crossed the line between an superbly accurate model and a practical one. So many I see on places like youtube that come out of the box broken or faulty. Undoubtably more accurate and pretty than their Hornby/Mainline/Airfix/Wrenn/Lima ancestors but very breakable so I expect a flood of damaged/worn-out models in 2030 or those with known issues that affect the price...

For sure there will be a very mixed bag on offer second hand - I am already buying when an item I can use is available in acceptable state for reasonable money - but knowledge of the model is key. I simply won't buy those with 'life limiting' or known weak or vulnerable mechanism constructions, or that are poor representations of the prototype.

But a s/h item on offer with known faults such as an easily rectified defect in the electrical circuit, compromised for traction by poor springing or weight distribution, or faults in appearance due to assembly errors: these are meat and drink to me. (A Bachmann A1 for £40, slow and won't pull, with 'cab droop' and front bogie detached: I'll have that, and quickly sorted out it now bombs along my mainline with 14 on.)

Detached detail, often not concerned, provided the bits were retrieved and come with. (A good example is that I have steadily hoovered up s/h the Cravens class 105's made by Bachmann, that my KX area operation requires. It's so easy to knock off the underside detail on these, but also so very easy to cement it back on invisibly and permanently; and the cost saving this produces is a very good trade!)

Even those with mazak rot! I have repowered my Airfix GMR Brush type 2 bodies, which are significantly more accurate in appearance than Hornby's, by purchasing very cheap Hornby Brush 2 mechanisms crumbling due to mazak rot. Nothing wrong with the running and appearance, and a little brutal work fits them into the bodyshell very easily. The drive train alone is worth the money paid, and should the main casting totally fail I can transplant it onto a built up brass channel substitute.

Ah, but then you are very highly-skilled, so there's not much that is beyond hope for you. When I started buying 2nd hand originally it was basically to learn how they worked so I wanted them cheap. After a while of buying locos as non-runners sometimes from model shops which took all of an hour to get working perfectly, I soon learned that most people either haven't the knowledge or the time to bother. Now i'm nowhere near your level or many others on here - I've only recently managed to quarter the wheels of a loco successfully which impressed me no end, but hardly advanced - but a lot of people can't even manage the basics.

Again, I was watching a few videos last night of the Hattons Class 66 and the wobbling axles. Now this is an expensive engine by anyone's reckoning and it arrives out the box with a wobble, a habit of de-railing and detail that falls off if you want to service it or stick in a DCC chip. You've got people lengthening the axle holes to get it to run properly (and not sending it back - are they mad, or am I)? and i'm thinking give that remedy 10 years and they'll be all over Ebay as non-runners as wear takes hold. I realise today's models for the most part won't suffer the same sort of use a Hornby/Mainline/Airfix got from their customers in the "toy" era, but then you rarely got an old loco where picking it up in the wrong place would result in something snapping off, and you could normally rely on them coming out of the box with basics like the wheels spaced correctly and not suffering from an inherent design flaw that requires you to dismantle them and start cutting them up before they've run. Nowadays it seems pot luck. I think in 10/20 years time it could well be a golden era buying 2nd hand for people like you who know what they're doing, but for those that don't, I think a lot of people will be more wary of buying a modern era loco classed as a non-runner.

[Bigmet]

...I was watching a few videos last night of the Hattons Class 66 and the wobbling axles. Now this is an expensive engine by anyone's reckoning and it arrives out the box with a wobble, a habit of de-railing and detail that falls off if you want to service it or stick in a DCC chip. You've got people lengthening the axle holes to get it to run properly (and not sending it back - are they mad, or am I)? and i'm thinking give that remedy 10 years and they'll be all over Ebay as non-runners as wear takes hold...

We are going to see more of such models too. These are what I would think of as 'boutique' productions. Equivalents in steam locos, Hornby's new Rocket and H-D 'replica' Duchess, Rapido Stirling single, Dapol Black label A4, <add your own example to this short list>).

These are aimed at a sector of the hobby that wants 'something extra' - and it turns out that I am in that sector, a Stirling single of correct external appearance and very good running and pulling power is something I have always wanted, and quite beyond my DIY capability - so I was prepared to pay. But that will be the one and only such...

Those buying such items have to make their own decisions about what matters to them. If the special features make them less than reliable, but they still choke up the cash and modify as required, their choice to make.

[CasperGriswoldBacon]

...I was watching a few videos last night of the Hattons Class 66 and the wobbling axles. Now this is an expensive engine by anyone's reckoning and it arrives out the box with a wobble, a habit of de-railing and detail that falls off if you want to service it or stick in a DCC chip. You've got people lengthening the axle holes to get it to run properly (and not sending it back - are they mad, or am I)? and i'm thinking give that remedy 10 years and they'll be all over Ebay as non-runners as wear takes hold...

We are going to see more of such models too. These are what I would think of as 'boutique' productions. Equivalents in steam locos, Hornby's new Rocket and H-D 'replica' Duchess, Rapido Stirling single, Dapol Black label A4, <add your own example to this short list>).

These are aimed at a sector of the hobby that wants 'something extra' - and it turns out that I am in that sector, a Stirling single of correct external appearance and very good running and pulling power is something I have always wanted, and quite beyond my DIY capability - so I was prepared to pay. But that will be the one and only such...

Those buying such items have to make their own decisions about what matters to them. If the special features make them less than reliable, but they still choke up the cash and modify as required, their choice to make.

Maybe, but they don't call these models boutique or state "may run terribly" on the box. I just wonder if you're someone starting up on the hobby or returning and you're faced with all these eye candy models on a website, and under the assumption the manufacturers still have an obligation to provide working models...….I know if I invested 200-500 minimum on a locomotive, tracks, power, rolling stock etc, and you ended up with a wobbly diesel, or a steam loco that can't take curves without stopping dead or derailing you're probably not gonna have the skillset to figure it out yourself. You'll have enough on your hands laying the track competently or figuring out DDC as a beginner without having to work out how to re-gauge wheels. A lot of people will send the loco back, or assume they're doing something wrong and give up

[Bigmet]

...
Maybe, but they don't call these models boutique or state "may run terribly" on the box. I just wonder if you're someone starting up in the hobby or returning and you're faced with all these eye candy models on a website, and under the assumption the manufacturers still have an obligation to provide working models...….I know if I invested 200-500 minimum on a locomotive, tracks, power, rolling stock etc, and you ended up with a wobbly diesel, or a steam loco that can't take curves without stopping dead or derailing you're probably not gonna have the skillset to figure it out yourself. You'll have enough on your hands laying the track competently or figuring out DCC as a beginner without having to work out how to re-gauge wheels. A lot of people will send the loco back, or assume they're doing something wrong and give up

You are quite right, and the outcome is likely to depend on a combination of purchaser aptitude and determination, and 'support' from various sources including friends, a good dealer or two, online resources, a club and exhibitions (when they can function properly!).

My own direct knowledge is confined to friends whom I have helped and encounters online in forums such as this.

The friends bit: once I have 'done the damage' by showing them what is now available, some have inevitably decided they are going to have the model railway they always wanted. With a little advice on what's good, what is best avoided, and some practical technique demonstration, this has gone well.

Online, a much more mixed picture and more difficult to assess outcomes: but I have seen sufficient positive reports and evidence of continuing expanding know how and interest to suggest this is good for some.

Do I feel the RTR manufacturers producing OO put in enough effort to help purchasers get off to a good start? Taken overall, no. I suspect they rely on the dealers to do such work with their customers, while supplying insufficient information to help the dealer make a good fist of it: that's my perception, mainly based on my experience with a couple of good retailers over the past 20 years. Why else are there regularly repeating problems evident online such as Hornby diesels derailing wagons, coaches tangling couplings, coupler choices, insufficient traction from well recognised 'awkward squad' designs, difficulties removing and refitting bodies, and much more.

[Bigmet]

With the recent Rapido announcement, I now make it twenty RTR OO 0-6-0T's to 'current standard', either produced (14) imminent (1) or announced (5). That's a major (and welcome) change over the past ten years, as this wheel arrangement was overall the most numerous tank engine type by far on the national network during the steam period (every layout should have one or more ).

There were a huge number in industrial service too, and to add to the choice of two already available, two of the announcements are for industrial types. That's a big change from the Leeds design 0-6-0ST - but only in 'J94' form - 'and that's your lot', of not many years past.

It's the territory of the LMS/LMR/ScR that is least favoured, notable deficiencies being the CR, NBR, and NLR standard 0-6-0T 's, let's see if they get some attention in the next few years...

[Bigmet]

Another 0-6-0T announced, and it's an industrial too: the rather ancient 'Bellerophon' Haydock colliery well tank, which is preserved by the KWVR and VCT in West Yorkshire. Manufacturer KR Models. It will make a lovely model, very different from anything else.

(Anyone finding the name difficult, there's a Royal Navy solution; the crew knew their 3rd rate battleship, first of this name, as 'Billy Ruffian'.)

[Wolseley]

The problem with the Heljan class 17 was binding gear trains causing the (small) motor to overheat and burn out.

True to prototype then.......

On the subject of choice of locomotives, and the reference earlier to Scottish locomotives in particular, there is one locomotive I mentioned a while ago on another forum which I think would be a good choice, although it is one that is likely to be overlooked.

It struck me that the Great North of Scotland Railway's "Gordon Highlander" (F Class) might be a suitable candidate for production. The GNSR itself is not widely modelled, but the class was long-lived and, with a bit of ingenuity, could be made to represent more than one class of locomotive and more than one railway.

Firstly, a model of the F Class could be made as a GNSR locomotive in lined black (as it was in pre-grouping days), LNER lined black, LNER plain black, British Railways lined black with either "British Railways" or the cycling lion on the tender (I'm not sure if any of them ended up with the later emblem but some of them might have), and GNSR lined green (as preserved).

Secondly, and here's where it gets interesting, with a modification to shorten the smokebox (about the only difference between the two classes) it could represent the GNSR V Class which, in addition to the above liveries (although none were preserved, the V Class carried GNSR green in pre-grouping days), it could also be marketed in SECR and Southern guise (a nice tie-in with Hornby's H Class) as a batch of the GNSR V Class were sold to the SECR when the GNSR found itself unable to pay the builders for them.

So what about it? Satisfy Scottish and South of England modellers at the same time.

[Bigmet]

The problem with the Heljan class 17 was binding gear trains causing the (small) motor to overheat and burn out.

True to prototype then...

Gosh, reminder of the situation a decade past! Strange to relate, buyers of model railway locos don't want them to accurately replicate prototype unreliability!

...On the subject of choice of locomotives, and the reference earlier to Scottish locomotives in particular, there is one locomotive I mentioned a while ago on another forum which I think would be a good choice, although it is one that is likely to be overlooked.

It struck me that the Great North of Scotland Railway's "Gordon Highlander" (F Class) might be a suitable candidate for production. The GNSR itself is not widely modelled, but the class was long-lived and, with a bit of ingenuity, could be made to represent more than one class of locomotive and more than one railway....

Provided the market for steam locos holds up, I can see all the preserved locos eventually getting RTR OO models. Whether whatever manufacturer takes it on has the insight to realise that there are these options if minor alternatives are provided for in the tooling, is the question. You will have to keep a close eye on 'forthcoming introductions' and be ready to shout the moment 'Fog Signal Models' make their announcement...