Steam loco choice ?

[live-frog]

Having followed a couple of threads yesterday , there is obviously some demand for more classes of STEAM loco to be made in rtr form.

As most of the MAJOR grouping and BR classes have been covered by manufacturers , I think we are dealing more with minority & pre-grouping classes and by definition that means that manufacturers would be less willing to produce them WITHOUT hard evidence that their is sufficient demand to warrant tooling.

Our neighbours ,RMWeb, have recently run a poll on Scottish prototypes and have discussed the results with one manufacturer. I believe this is commendable and the way to go. That poll was based on a narrowed down choice of 8 classes of Scottish loco.

If we bear in mind that manufacturers produce only 1 or 2 new classes each year AND that it's not just the Scottish region that lack classes of steam loco , then I for one can appreciate the manufacturers' difficulty in deciding which missing classes to produce.

The purpose of this thread is to get members to state which class of STEAM loco they would like to see which has not yet been produced in rtr form.
If there is sufficient interest then I suggest a poll be run and again IF there is sufficient response then the results should be made known to manufacturers.

For starters , my choice would be The Ex Lancashire & Yorkshire Railways Class 27 0-6-0 tender loco.

[Bigmet]

A small 0-6-0 is right on the money as far as I am concerned. We already have the last largest 0-6-0 of each of the big 4: 4F, J39, 2251, Q1; the J39 and Q1 were 5F, very large for 0-6-0 types, most of which were 2F or thereabouts.

My preference in an 0-6-0 would be for a small, preferably round-topped boiler class, as this forces a compact mechanism to be used, suitable for adaption to many other small types. There's loads that would see me shelling out, (I have already ordered the Midland 3F) such as the L&Y class 25 'ironclad', J15 GER 'small goods', Wainwright SECR C class, NER J21, CR 'Jumbo', all of them worthy candidates for a model. The maker we have most chance of getting these from is Bachmann: they have been to the fore in bringing out medium sized engines, as opposed to Hornby's love of express passenger types, (not that these are not very fine models). But to get little 0-6-0s, we have to buy them: once a maker sees that a genre is worth supplying, more is likely to follow. So if you want a small 0-6-0, buy a 3F, even if it is far from a perfect fit for your modelling. Because if it does well, then there is a higher probability of more small black goods types.

[live-frog]

The 3F's on my definite list Bigmet , but I haven't pre-ordered yet until all the major suppliers publish there prices.

[Zunnan]

A small 0-6-0 tender loco is right on the money. OO Works cottoned on to this some time ago and have produced small batches of Drummond '700's and Wainright 'C's and announced a MR 2F, all of which sold well at more than double the price Bachmann and Hornby sell similarly sized models. The demand is certainly there! A L&Y 27 would suit me to a tee, it would allow production of the 28 and a 25 wouldn't be out of the question (and more likely being as one survives in preservation). A LNWR 17in Coal Engine, 18in Goods or Special DX wouldn't go amiss either.

Along similar lines, I think that small/medium tanks would be a good idea with the likes of the LNWR Webb 'Coal Tank' 0-6-2 which numbered 300 or the L&Y Aspinall/Hughes class 5 2-4-2 which numbered 330(Aspinall) and 40(Hughes). Then theres the endless colourful industrial types from the likes of Peckett, Hunslet, Barclay, Hudswell Clarke, Kerr Stuart etc. Perfect for compact layouts as well as attracting a younger audience with more than enough garish livery variations. Not to mention a large number outlasting main line steam and making it to preservation where they often make up the bulk of the roster on a good number of lines to this day.

I'll be doing my bit regarding the 3F. 3 on order and I'll buy from a second batch if they do it

[live-frog]

I think the "Preservation" angle was a MAJOR factor in Persuading Bachmann to do the S&D 7F 2-8-0 , Zunnan so although the L&Y 27 is a valid fit for my layout I could stretch to a L&Y 25 at a pinch

[Bigmet]

Fingers crossed on the preservation side of things: as this becomes more and more the steam railway people have actually seen, I would hope that the engines operating in preservation have a better chance of being produced as RTR models.

[bike2steam]

A small 0-6-0 is right on the money as far as I am concerned. We already have the last largest 0-6-0 of each of the big 4: 4F, J39, 2251, Q1; the J39 and Q1 were 5F, very large for 0-6-0 types, most of which were 2F or thereabouts.

Up to fairly recently manufacturers have taken the easy way out regards loco size.Motors have had to be robust, fitted into similar chassis, remember bachmann took 3 goes to get the Southern N class mogul right as regards fitting in a suitable motor, WHY ?, because the limited space in the boiler/firebox to fit a motor, same problem with small 0-6-0's such as the J15. But both Hornby,(more so Hornby) and Bachmann are bringing those limits down, fortunately with more efficient, and smaller motors.Hornbys use of 5 pole skew wound motors is a vast improvement, but bachmann continued use of 3 pole is questionable.The Belpaire firebox is a big help.

[Bigmet]

I would have agreed about the five pole skew wound motor until quite recently. That dates from my starting to use DCC: high grade decoders level the playing field so effectively that I am no longer bothered. My relatively new three pole motored Bachmann WD, crawls at just the same dead slow ultra smooth pace as the older 5 pole motored WDs. That goes for all the other Bach steam that has three pole motors, DCC makes them as smooth as silk; and they ain't bad on DC either.

The improvements in low cost small can motors since the Bach N came out, means that the motor choice is no longer so difficult. I was looking at the 12mm diameter round bodied can motor that Heljan have used in their new class 15 with some interest. That will fit very easily in many small boilered types. Only three pole, yet it was smooth and had good torque down to very low revs, still turning the wheels when the loco was held back, driven by a DC resistance controller on the shop test track, no BEMF lending a helping hand.

Back to steam loco choice: using the rest of the boiler not occupied by motor to pack in weight for good traction, means a 4 wire connection to the tender to allow the decoder socket to go there. How do others feel about that?

[Zunnan]

Providing a 4 wire link to the tender for a decoder is a good idea as it also provides plenty space for sound fitting should that be your can of beans. Its already been used for the G2a successfully and Ivatt 2MT all be it with lesser success due to the length of the trailing wires. I think thats the way forward for new models, but I can see why the Standards aren't likely to have this due to the common use of older tooling tenders. I can't see them facing the outlay of retooling half a dozen tenders and locomotive chassis any time soon.

I'd like to see tender pickups on an 0-6-0 if I'm honest. Something of a similar design that Bachmann use on the 108 and Dapol (in N Gauge) do on their tender locomotives, ie: brass strip shaped into the axlebox forming a bearing that doubles as a pickup. Very low rolling resistance and allows for more reliable pickup than wipers against the back of drivers. If the locomotive pickups feed to a decoder in the tender necessitating a wired link, I don't see why the opportunity for additional pickups can't be exploited.

[son of triangman]

Tri-ang used to make a nice Midland 3F tender loco, sadly Hornby modified the mould and added a hideous large frontplate turning it into the James body for the Thomas range.

A jiffy would be nice addition, the J15 is a nice GER/LNER loco that would make a lovely model.

[live-frog]

A jiffy would be nice addition, the J15 is a nice GER/LNER loco that would make a lovely model.

I see the NNR has 65462 SoT , that would be a positive for manufacturers with more people,seemingly, venturing into preserved layouts. Being from LMR country I don't know the loco but that's a very handsome machine !!
Just had a look in my "lists" and I see that 127 of these little beasties were still on BR books in 1960 out of a total of 289 built , that's an impressive survival rate for a pre-grouping loco.
Geographical spread was limited to the former Great Eastern region but I think that will apply to most locos on this list.

Similar to the motor/boiler size issue , didn't Heljan recently have a problem with the narrow bonnets on the Class 17 diesel ?

[Bigmet]

The problem with the Heljan class 17 was binding gear trains causing the (small) motor to overheat and burn out. Some people stripped the original model, corrected the fault in the bogie gear trains and they ran perfectly well. By all reports the properly constructed replacement chassis are good. It appears that the same (or a very similar) small motor is in the class 15, and works fine.

The J15, GER 'small goods' is an outrageously pretty machine. Well liked by the crews too, who knew that at need they could be thrashed unmercifully and do the work of a 4F type without complaining. Dick Hardy wrote very affectionately of them and the crews who worked them, there's a lovely pic in one of his books of a cab interior all in rich cream, with the brasswork lovingly polished. They lived on to the end of steam because of the lightly laid branchlines of East Anglia: when the ground is mostly peat for example, you cannot put on too much weight. The agricultural traffic was very heavy; when the grain, potatoes, sugar beet came in there were main line loads to shift on small branches, and the J15 was very often the only machine light enough yet with the tractive power. They worked off the old GER lines onto the East Coast mainline too: ran alongside all the pacifics and the rest of the steam menagerie, the pilot diesels and the DP1 protoype. This was what made the railway circa 1960 so very interesting: ancient equipment designed in the 1880s, alongside the new traction, some of which is still in service in limited numbers.

[bike2steam]

Play safe, and start with the class not yet rtr that covered the greatest area, railway wise,, and work your way down.
But J15 would be popular, but I'm biased being a 'Swedey'( central Essex), with 2 uncles who were drivers at Stratford that took me on a 'few' visits there in the 1950's.

[son of triangman]

A jiffy would be a really good addition along with a rebuilt Claud with original splashers, GER steam, two very handsome machines. Jiffy's were common place out here, doing all sorts of light and indeed heavy jobs. Freight from the Wisbech & Upwell Tramway could number 40 12T box vans or open wagons which would be brought up to the Wisbech East Station by steam tram J70 or later on Drewery 04, for a waiting Jiffy to snort and slog it's way to March for the goods onward movement to market in London. At March or Lynn the jiffy would either work through depending on load or be swopped for a mainline loco like a B12, D16/3 Claud, K3 or Ivatt 4MT, such workings were common pace out here.

Loads during the summer were mainly soft fruit, strawberrys being a main popular load around Wimbledon time when prices were at their premium, with all those Londoners paying well over the odds for their posh strawberrys and cream as they watched the tennis, in the winter potatoes were a common load as were brussel sprouts, carrots etc.

Jiffy's wandered regualrly onto the M&GN at South Lynn and could be seen working with Midland locos mainly 4MT's. So Midland fans could just about run a Jiffy as. Jiffy's occasionally wandered into midland territory to the north as well via the ECML M&GN Peterborough flyover on the P'boro-Wisbech-Sutton Bridge route and via Bourne on the Spalding M&GN route.

The J15 was a cracking little loco. I have seen the surviving one preserved at Sheringham many times a handsome little gusty loco. The survivor was stored on shed at March with the B12 for a while for the then fledgling M&GN society.

C'mon Hornby make one, you know you want to. I'd buy one super detail or not, it is such a handsome loco and would have a good livery range too so they could get plenty of mileage out the moulds.

[Bigmet]

Play safe, and start with the class not yet rtr that covered the greatest area, railway wise ...

If we apply that rule to peak numbers in BR steam (the mid fifties onward is where the greatest interest in steam is, many customers won't buy early crest steam models, I am told) you will find that the commonest classes are largely covered now: the obvious next common loco crying out for a model is the MR 3F type as announced by Bachmann. Take a number like a 100 locos as constituting a 'large class', and therefore likely to cover a good area railway wise then no further GW classes will ever be required, and only one SR class, (C class 0-6-0) the third commonest SR class is the M7 (available, good call Hornby) just over the 100 mark. Apart from those two and the BB/WC class the SR only had very small classes. So it is non-stop LMS and LNER from there, lots of the pre-group 0-8-0s, 0-6-0s and 0-6-0T's that they operated. Oh goody...