Kernow/Dapol LSWR Gated push pull stock.

[Pennine MC]

If you can do better, as you obviously believe that you can given the amount of self praise you have bestowed on yourself in previous postings, then why not manufacture and release a better product for those few "discerning modellers".

To be fair to Adrian, his products in 4mm and 7mm scales under the ABS brand (which may not be familiar to many) do show his track record and that he can 'walk the walk' as well as 'talk the talk'. He is retired, or semi-so; I don't believe he (or anybody for that matter) should have to set up in competition to gain entitlement to be critical.

I really do hope that the moderators lock this topic as your continual criticism is not constructive.

I really do hope they don't; in my view it would be a sledgehammer to crack a walnut and with the greatest of respect to the mods here, there's more to moderation than locking threads. If the repetitive nature of Adrian's postings is deemed a problem (and remember, I am quite sympathetic to that view), then it should be Adrian that is dealt with. Locking the thread would simply penalise those posters who can discuss the model in more moderate ways.

[GWR_fan]

Ian,
this saga has been dished out ad finitum on another site back in 2014 (and dealt with) and apparently the 'battle' extended to a less frequented site after that, gaining no traction. Adrian has now decided to continue the battle over here. Perhaps he has more time on his hands enabling him to post his views here as I assume he has now apparently retired. As a manufacturer I feel that he should have been looking after his own business rather than criticising another.

Adrian is correct in his wanting a detailed model but he is not privvy to the background of manufacturing decisions made by Kernows. This thread coerced me into looking into the saga. It seems that Kernows signed off on the CAD's back in 2014 and authorised commencement of tooling back then. Given the financial investment to date and the knowledge base of those involved in the project, exactly how is Adrian's one man battle going to change anything. His pedantic stand for perfection has not endeared him to many.

Adrian has a right to his private comments but as he has not apparently been directly involved with the model (supplied info but no feedback as to manufacturer's acceptance of his material), then the market should decide the fate of the model. No doubt, even with the backgrounding criticisms levelled against it, the model will be a success. Those wanting gate stock coaches will be more than pleased with the model as other than a few difficult to construct kits, the model has apparently not been released RTR previously. Yes, there will be faults as there are with many mass produced models these days and there will always be those ready with their criticisms. I seem to recall recent criticisms directed towards Hornby as regards overly large rivets on other Southern based coaches yet to be released.

[Bufferstop]

It's almost 60 years since I put away the train set and started a model railway. Back then there was no internet to allow instant publishing of letters from the readers, instead editors would try to print a balanced selection of both sides of the argument, when they thought it was played out they would print a message that said something like "This topic has been discussed thoroughly and will now end. Since they had absolute control over what got printed, it did.
I think everyone with an interest has had the opportunity to make their point, further repetition is likely to be just a waste of bandwidth. Now let's see if we can just leave it to find its natural resting place without having to lock the thread.

[Pennine MC]

... exactly how is Adrian's one man battle going to change anything. His pedantic stand for perfection has not endeared him to many. .

It isn't, and it hasn't.

I really do dislike making this about one person - someone whose achievements in the hobby I do respect and admire - but with his imitation of a broken record, Adrian is not only his own worst enemy but he also undermines the efforts made by many more moderate critics to uphold the principle of objective criticism. I do suspect though that he'll still want the last word and will end up getting this thread locked. If he manages to resist that temptation, his currency might just go up a tad with me. Que sera, sera.

[Richard Lee]

On the whole, I would prefer if the thread was not locked. The O2 thread under 'Other Manufacturers' has been locked. Although I am happy with the way my O2 runs now, there were a couple of things that I had to deal with. I don't have enough knowledge to comment about the accuracy of the model, but I might be be able to offer advice about getting it going successfully.

I have the Gated Stock on pre-order. Unless Hornby or Bachmann beat Kernow bringing out the first 1930s SR branch-line coaches, I am not likely to cancel. I take it as given that there will be some inaccuracies in any ready-to-run model; I am not adverse to learning about them, although it may be useful to put them in context, rather than just a daunting list. I love my Hornby Terriers, but even I can tell you about some of their inaccuracies.

[bradshaw]

I absolutely do not think this thread should be locked. I welcome honest information on the quality or accuracy of a model whether it be praise or criticism. There does seem to be a trend across fora these days where any critical comment of a model is attacked by people who don't seem to want to hear anything but praise about the latest manufacturers offerings.

Having said that the conversation seems to be played out now until the Gate stock is produced. Once it's on the shelves anyone who's purchased should be entitled to post factual comments, good or bad, without being bashed for doing so.

B

[Bufferstop]

Glad to see you agree with my idea of letting it find its own level, that is if the comparative brevety of those posts is an indicator.

[adrianbs]

Hi all A last short post ! Of the near 30 errors, Mike King's drawings and photos show 3 battery boxes not 2, they are considerably smaller and in totally different positions to those on the Kernow pre-pro model. This in turn causes other major errors, very much akin to the cheapo Hornby Railroad coaches at less than £20. Am I alone in researching this while others prefer to howl me down without any attempt to check the samples ??

[Pennine MC]

Hi all A last short post ! Of the near 30 errors, Mike King's drawings and photos show 3 battery boxes not 2, they are considerably smaller and in totally different positions to those on the Kernow pre-pro model. ...

I think we may be moving forward again - that is at least a readily identifiable discrepancy that's been put into some sort of context.

[adrianbs]

Hi All There.s plenty more where that came from Ian but should I risk the threat of being banned. I don't think so !!

[Richard Lee]

I spent a while looking for pictures of Gated Stock in real life yesterday, but the ones I found didn't give a clear view of the battery boxes. Some were taken at stations, where the platform obscured the view, but most concentrated on the locomotive rather than the coaches.

[Bufferstop]

Why is the advice always to obtain a dated photograph. Such details can often change throughout the life of a vehicle. We can only make assumptions on the best evidence available, 100% certainty can never be held in retrospect. When such "minor details" as the whole shape of the cab front can be different on two or more members of the same class, (168 DMU) even the best of evidence can be misleading. Certainty is the prerogative of the brave, or ****ish.

[Pennine MC]

Why is the advice always to obtain a dated photograph. Such details can often change throughout the life of a vehicle. We can only make assumptions on the best evidence available, 100% certainty can never be held in retrospect. .

Dated to around the date that one is modelling, I would say is the full gist of it. I agree though that some level of assumption is often required, in many cases the 'balance of probability' is a useful tool.

[adrianbs]

Hi All Already someone is trying to discredit my comments on the B/Bs. Try Gordon Weddell's bible " LSWR Carriages in the 20th Century " or reading the notes in Mike King's book "An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-Push stock" Even if there were only 2 B/Bs it would be impossible to fit them where Kernow have, on the real coaches, and the size of theirs would not fit in the correct position. The 3 B/B layout was standard for LSWR coaches of that period although the trailer coach in this instance had neither B/Bs nor dynamo but did have a prominent component which Kernow have omitted.
Dated photos are essential for various reasons, especially if you happen to want to model that particular item during a period in which the picture falls. Even if it was changed the next day or the day before you can be certain the model was like the prototype on that date. It is also important to enable major changes be tracked back to the last overhaul or works visit and know there would have been no significant changes in the intervening period. If you have the maintenance record cards, as I believe Mike does for the Gate stock, you can check which features were correct for the stock at various times and prove errors for what they are. Mike supplied more than sufficient very accurate information to Kernow but if they have not used it, or have misinterpreted it, they only have themselves to blame if there are criticisms. What is worse is that they have not checked the CADs properly before tooling commenced. I don't know who does their CAD work or whether it is China or the UK but the same sort of errors have followed Dave Jones from Dapol to Kernow and appear to be getting worse. Richard Lee has obviously looked closely at pictures and should have noticed some of the other more obvious errors which he can tell us about in his next post.

[Pennine MC]

Hi All Already someone is trying to discredit my comments on the B/Bs.

Are they? Where? All I can see is one post, somebody saying they couldn't find clear photos. You did say you wanted folk to look for themselves, didn't you?