Point Motor Wiring layout

[brober]

Once again thanks for your great advice. Hopefully that is all the potential pitfalls covered!

[brober]

Would 2 x 7/0.2 be an acceptable substitute for 16/0.2? (trying to use up spare I have found in the bits box!)

[Flashbang]

It should be ok, but the two doubled up lengths need to be the same or very near in length. If you get any fail to throw issues increase the wire size even to 3 x 7/0.2 in a triple format.

[brober]

Ok thanks.

[brober]

Now that I think I have the motor wiring worked out in my head I am turning my thoughts to how to best show on the control board which way the points are configured. I am assuming this is traditionally done by LEDs showing the "connected/ live" route. In order to keep matters as simple as possible I assume 12v LEDS would be the best option (white light). As these will need to be continually lit I assume they cannot be wired to the point motor feed and return beyond the CDU. So the following queries arise in my mind

1) Should the LEDs be wired to the feed and return before the CDU or a separate F and R circuit?
2) If before the CDU will 12v LEDS be ok with 16V DC/AC input?
3) Would a DC or AC PSU best?
3) Will 7/0.2 wiring be ok for them?

I am sure I will have other queries as I think this through but I would be grateful for responses/suggestions to the above in the first instance.
NB: I have some 25No sets of turnouts (all with SEEP PM1 motors) to wire up so will be looking for the simplest option!

[Flashbang]

Now that I think I have the motor wiring worked out in my head I am turning my thoughts to how to best show on the control board which way the points are configured. I am assuming this is traditionally done by LEDs showing the "connected/ live" route. In order to keep matters as simple as possible I assume 12v LEDS would be the best option (white light). As these will need to be continually lit I assume they cannot be wired to the point motor feed and return beyond the CDU. So the following queries arise in my mind

1) Should the LEDs be wired to the feed and return before the CDU or a separate F and R circuit?
2) If before the CDU will 12v LEDS be ok with 16V DC/AC input?
3) Would a DC or AC PSU best?
3) Will 7/0.2 wiring be ok for them?

I am sure I will have other queries as I think this through but I would be grateful for responses/suggestions to the above in the first instance.
NB: I have some 25No sets of turnouts (all with SEEP PM1 motors) to wire up so will be looking for the simplest option!

Assuming Analogue point control then..
1) No, Indication LED need a totally separate power source normally.
2) No, if an LED is rated at 12 volts DC that is their maximum voltage. However, adding a series resistor will enable them to operate at higher voltages
3) To feed LED and Regulated DC power supply is the best. 12 v DC may be the bet option
3A) Yes, for LED feeds and returns 7?0.2mm will be fine

[brober]

Many thanks, most helpful.

[Bufferstop]

A long time ago when Hornby Dublo was king and the little upstart Triang was only just starting to make some ripples, the point motor of choice was the H&M. It included a switch which changed when the point was thrown. It could be used in conjunction with a single pole change over switch to operate the motor. It was wired like a stairs light with a pair of wires joining the switch in the motor to the switch at the panel. When the switch was thrown the power would be connected through the switch in the motor which caused it to throw, and disconnect itself in the process. There could be a double indication of the points position as a bulb (LEDs didin't exist) connected to each wire indicated which way the point was set and the changeover switch also showed which way the point was set. Something similar could be arranged today with a microswitch at the point motor, a single pole c/o switch on the panel and two LEDs with appropriate resistors.

[Flashbang]

What is being described is sometimes called "Cutting its own throat" (power) as the point motor operated switch uses its own contact to feed and cut off the coils power. That was fine when contacts as on the very old H & M motors were built like 'outside toilet blocks' but todays lightweight microswitches frequently do not have the contacts suitable for the amperage needed by the solenoid motors coil, typically 3 to 4 Amp flows momentarily and causes an arc as the contacts open to cut off the power. Leading to eventual contact burn out and failure!
Adding a CDU will help overcome this contact arcing problem, as the CDUs capacitors will have discharged before the contacts open on the micro switch. But then the CDUs use prevents LEDs being feed from that feed from the operating switch!! So then use a flywheel inverse diode to absorb the power and omit the CDU.
Typical example.. No CDU or flywheel diodes shown

[brober]

That all sounds a bit of hammer and walnut! Think I'll stick with motors powered through CDU with LEDs powered separately. Lots more wiring but possibly easier to fault-find if necessary.

Would I be right in thinking that with separate PSUs and with the LEDs connected to tags D,E and F on the PM1 that the "live" route will light up when LED system is initially powered up (i.e. replicating the last set up before pervious switch off) and will change when motor is newly activated?

[Flashbang]

That all sounds a bit of hammer and walnut! Think I'll stick with motors powered through CDU with LEDs powered separately. Lots more wiring but possibly easier to fault-find if necessary.

Would I be right in thinking that with separate PSUs and with the LEDs connected to tags D,E and F on the PM1 that the "live" route will light up when LED system is initially powered up (i.e. replicating the last set up before pervious switch off) and will change when motor is newly activated?

Yes that is correct re LED lit when powered up, as the PM1 switch remains connected F to either D or E depending on motors/points position.

[brober]

Excellent, thank you.

[brober]

Sorry to be a pain.... I have decided to wire each point motor separately i.e. no pairing. In doing this am I ok to reduce the common return wire to 16/0.2 instead of 32/0.2?

[pete12345]

I always think indicator LEDs should be linked to the actual position of the motor rather than the position of the switch. Otherwise they don't really tell you much other than that the switch has been changed. If you've got switch contacts on the point motor, the best option is to use those to switch the LEDs and use momentary toggle switches or push buttons to operate the motor itself. It's not that much more wiring overall- normally two wires plus a common ground, or by wiring the LEDs in series you can have a switch arrangement which means only one additional wire is needed for each point, plus a common supply and ground.

[End2end]

D) Seep PM1 to PM4 range are notorious for needing to be 100% aligned correctly under the point. So do ensure this and also do not over tighten them either.

This is the bit I'm still really struggling with.
I have already drilled 10mm holes under all the points tie bars before securing the track down, no problem there, and I also have a great tool for installing seep's accurately on UNBALLASTED track which uses the sleepers as well as the point itself to sit accurately on the track to drill through the baseboard with pilot holes for where the screws and pin go and also keeping the point blades in the middle (scroll down - https://www.spc-cov.uk/store ) so some point motors are installed.
But I ballasted some of my track before I found and bought the tool so it does not work there and I've always been rubbish at accuracy which these point motors need to work properly.

I just cannot find a decent "idiots" tool to install them accurately and correctly on ballasted track. I've tried the flipped, notched clothes peg method. No good. My accuracy in cutting the slots was useless. I've even bought this tool but it's still not accurate enough - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seep-point-m ... SwoWFfdJBC
Apart from lifting all the ballast on those points, I'm at a loss.
Thanks
End2end