HS II - Shunting with Kadees

[nickbrad]

You're probably aware Geoff that there are very many different Kadee couplings out there and they are not all made equal. Rob Strachan, (Tilley Yard South,) swears by a particular one, #58 I believe and says that they are superior to others, such as the #5 which is the most common one. I do wonder if part of your issue is with the type of coupler you're using, although slack/loose pockets will definitely work against you for auto coupling.

[Dad-1]

Hi nickbrad,

Yes, so many different versions, we chose No.18 as on paper it looked like the best for our use.
They do also have manufacturing tolerances that can make some better than others out of the
same packet. All ours are new, but one didn't seem to move as well so I swapped and the next
one worked better.
Certainly the use of plastic wheel-sets on almost non-magnetic axles has got rid of the track
magnets ability to move a wagon 25 - 35 mm !! I think it's a much more delicate balance than
one might want as moving slowly you can get uncoupling that you don't want, while other times
they won't uncouple during gentle slow speed shunting.
It's my intention to put foam wedges against axles to give some drag to free running wagons. My
buddy Derek thought his layout was flat, but put a wagon I'd repaired on and it rolled over 9". Any
wagon that free is unlikely to uncouple easily. That's a problem with this testing phase as the test
track section seen here is unsupported thin ply that never sits flat !!

The battle continues !!

Geoff T.

[SR/ScR Fan]

Hi Geoff,

There appears to be a few issues here. The Kadee height gauge is an essential bit of kit in my opinion. Really helps iron out issues.

You said that the magnets are too weak to open the Kadees? Again depending on the magnet used it should sit on the sleepers of code 100, not cutting out the sleepers and mounting it on the board.

I haven't used NEM Kadees so I can't offer an specific advice on them, but whenever I buy a new piece of rolling stock, I remove the original coupler (or gear/draw) box, and fit a Kadee #242 "black box", usually with Wilko's contact adhesive, but it can be attached with nylon or acetate screws.

I'd avoid the screws as if you over tighten them, the Kadee movement is restricted and can even not move at all. The trip pin on the Kadee should just sit above the magnet (think cigarette paper gap) for optimal performance.

Nick has mentioned my preference for #58, but I chose them because they are closer to scale. For reliabilty stick with the #18 or #19 for NEM or #5 if you are replacing the coupler boxes.

[Dad-1]

Thanks for the additional help SR/ScR Fan,

This is quite a learning curve, so many separate things need to be spot-on.
Part of my testing difficulties have been working on a piece of unsupported
thin ply, it's got a few bends that wouldn't effect normal tension lock couplings
but are a disaster for Kadees.
I'm also thinking that trying to mix one of the large Kadee under board magnets
with 2 of the between the tracks versions is making life difficult. It's the large
magnet that's rolling stock along !!
I'm going to be very busy for the next 2 weeks - Building up to the MK Exhibition
on 11th February so I won't get the test board on a frame before then and without
that I'll never get sorted.

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

Hi Dave,

I have to say that so far I'm disappointed with them. The basic problema are the excessive
accuracy needed and the effect on magnetic axles of the standard short wheelbases of British
wagon stock.
The between rails seems to work best, but is as unsightly and anything else you can find. I've
not given up YET and as this is a shunting puzzle layout with no need for more than 8 wagons.
The stronger under-board magnets meet the visual requirements and certainly move the couplers
allowing for delayed coupling, but from experiments so far need to be used with plastic wheelsets
as used by Hornby, where the axles were all but non-magnetic. In such limited confines you just
can't have wagons magnetically drawn along the track 35 mm .......

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

Ahhh getting somewhere after more playing.
I had it running quite well tonight, but it would seem to me we will need bespoke wagons.
That's not too serious, we intend using 8 which won't cost a fortune, probably no more
than the Midland 1F we bought specifically for this layout.
First I was doing well with plastic wheel sets in two of my Dapol kit built meat wagons, the
other again Dapol, but a RTR unpainted GWR Fruit Mex. These were not drawn along the
track by magnets which exert their pull on the axles. I found another axle-set and was going
to put in a Bachmann wagon. It jammed up solid ??
Getting the vernier out I find the Bachmann Axles are nominally 2.0 mm, I measured 1.97 mm.
My old Hornby wheel-sets have 2.35 mm axles !! While the Dapol were able to accept either into
the moulded axle-boxes, or surprisingly into the Romford brass bearing inserts they jammed
in Bachmann wagons. Why were those old Hornby axles non-magnetic ??
I was then relying on foam wedged into the gap between Bachmann coupling mounting blocks and
their axles. So long as you had enough drag to allow non-spinning movement the vans stood still
rather than being pulled along by the hidden magnet. The vans won't roll and need a positive force
to move, but the loco has no trouble pushing or pulling these short trains.

The amount of drag simply would not be acceptable for the long freights I run on other layouts. Hence
why I was thinking a need for bespoke shunting stock. I'll add a video of an Alan Gibson wheel set
being pulled by the magnet !!

**edit later
https://youtu.be/GPHejDrNShY

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

We were very unhappy with the between rails magnet, simply didn't like the look.
Derek still had two of the larger under-board magnets which we decided to use.
These are now in place :-



Testing so far has been excellent although it took me ages to get tracks accurately
enough over the dead centre of the magnets. They still pull un-braked stock in a way
that we find unacceptable. A couple of 'braked' wagons are fine, but the foam packing
can work it's way out. My next plan is to attach thin metal brake strips glued to a
van's underside.

Perhaps a video later

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

Almost cracked it !! ............ I Think ??
Today 3 Dapol unpainted vans arrived, stripped out the wagon weight and fixed
less magnetic weights to the van interior walls. Replaced the metal wheels sets
with my plastic wheeled sets. Cyno glued the Dapol coupling holding parts in place
while making certain the Kadee couplings were dead centre. Obviously I'd already
made certain all the wagons couplings were at an identical heights.

Driven by hand they work perfectly ........

Now loads of painting & decaling to do ....... But I can't find a diagram to match,
but will use some Wolverton build serial numbers.

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

the last of our 'bespoke' wagons stock arrived yesterday.
Because neither Derek or myself fancy using Kadees for our normal layout couplings
we decided that the 8 wagons, or thereabouts for this shunting layout would not
become part of our general wagon stock.
I've found that Dapol can be converted for Kadees easier than Bachmann wagons and
just as important come out a lot cheaper so rough handling and damage during use
doesn't become a problem. Remember this is designed to be used by anybody who
fancies a go in an exhibition environment.
One of the many things I fail to see in model railways is old planked coal wagons with
bowed sides. Well, using Dapol un-painted at £6 seemed to be a good opportunity to
at least try something. First I wedged a piece of wood across and played the hair-dryer
on to see if I could introduce a permanently set bulge. Answer - No !! The plastic resists
permanent distortion to a temperature beyond which I didn't want to go, no point in
destroying a wagon.
As this one is intended to have a permanently fixed coal load I've wedged a wooden
brace to spread and this will be hidden within the load.



You may well ask why Dapol ? As already mentioned they're cheap as chips. They also tend
to have darned great holes through the wagon with magnetic screws holding the coal load in
and body to chassis. When removed it gives access to the metal wagon weight held in a void
beneath the wagon body floor. I strip these out as part of my reducing magnetic material to
aid operation of the Kadees. I replace with a thin piece of lead, including packing as much
additional material as the void will take, making the wagon heavier. The body needs to fit
back tightly and I then permanently glue the body back on.
As this wagon carries a load I glued a small scrap of plastic over the hole inside the wagon,
just to stop watered down PVA dripping right through following fixing the coal.

As to sorting out those droopy Dapol couplings, I'll explain that in the next posting here, but
in this instance they are not a problem to me, in fact have some real benefits !!

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

As currently much of this is about wagons I've continued
in my Workbench Thread until back working with the
actual Kadees and layout.

Geoff T.

[Dad-1]

While I'm laid-up I've done a few little bits on our Dapol wagons.
I'm still having difficulties regarding Kadee magnets drawing wagons along
making precise and reliable un-coupling difficult. Weight has no influence
as our 5 plank coal wagon weighs so much I worry about wear in the plastic
axle boxes !!
Here is the basic (Test) piece with 9 wagons. There are just 2 spare spaces
and the requirement to get any designated 5 in correct order on the 5 wagon
siding. The usable head-shunt will only take 4 wagons so this can have some
very difficult sequences to achieve the required end !!



These are not 100% Dapol, there are 2 Bachmann, but I'm quite enjoying getting
these wagons ready - What a surprise, me and wagons !!

Geoff T.

[SR/ScR Fan]

Hi Dave and Geoff,

I still have many plastic wheeled boxcars and suffer no problems. I have changed wheel sets that have magnetic axles and plastic wheels. You may be correct on too much magnet as the magnet should not attract the wagon.

That said, I use the Kadee 321 (between the rails) so they aren't stupidly powerful. I have only used under the rail once before (Bachmann) and I wouldn't use them again.

They require far too much fettling. Perfect level track, superb controller control etc. The between the rail, whilst not as visually pleasing, do work much better as they follow the track.

Rob

[Dad-1]

Hi Guys, All help stored away for future developments !!

It's easy to say it's too much magnet, but to get reliable strong movement that's what it needs.
In fact I had a couple of couplings that simply didn't move as freely as others I used to replace
them. I've also had 2, one each in different packets where the knuckle springs had fallen out.

We decided we didn't like the between track magnets and they've been placed in the 'spares'
bin. I'm now certain that I can get the level of operation I want, but to achieve that I must
prevent wagon creep where interacting with those under-board magnets. Certainly the 3 bauxite
wagons on plastic wheel-sets behave perfectly. One Bachmann wagon with a brake on both axles
provided by a sprung length of thin phosphor-bronze woks well as did another with foam pad brakes.
It's my intention to add brakes for any that I can't find the suitable Hornby plastic wheels on non-
magnetic steel axle replacements.

I think our requirement is quite extreme. We need to drop wagons reliably in a 1.0 cm window. Not
just once, but over 3 different magnets, every few seconds, up to 15 times without a single failure.
We will be running DCC, probably mainly a Digitrax system. It is our intention to have a built-in
spirt-level on the layout which has already been fitted with adjustable feet. I also intend opening
the Back-to-Back measurements to the widest we can to reduce the slack of a wagon moving off
the exact centre-line of our magnets.

SR/ScR Fan is right it will require much fettling, adjustment and minor modification as we go along.
Having said that on some recent testing with the dedicated Midland 1F it looked like we'll get there.
Who ever though a 4 oz Dapol coal wagon would roll far too easily !!

All good fun, problems are there to solve - how reliable we can make it for general operating is
something we'd prefer not to thing about too much at the stage of development.

Geoff T.

[Bufferstop]

Geoff, for magnetic operation of tension lock the two magnets are buried on the centre line about three sleepers apart. How close together are the magnetic tails of the Kadees. The between the rails magnets are quite long. Which way does the polarity run? If it's crossways you may need to ensure that your two magnets are opposite poles upward, which should neutralise the field at any distance. The old inverse square law and all that. My only experience of moving couplers sideways was with Peco metal ones which needed to be over the same pole, then they repelled each other. If they had been engineered as well as the Kadees everyone wouldn't have welcomed tension lock. Fitted to a free running wagon you always ended up pinning it against the buffers before they would couple.

[Dad-1]

Hi John,

The Kadees are working better now I realise the accuracy required in
having the magnetic tails running over dead centre of the magnets.
The lateral accuracy required is very high and while I can now get close
to 100% uncoupling, I've still not managed 100% on the un-coupled push
back. Some of that seems to be slightly 'sticky' Kadee knuckle heads that
pull apart enough to un-couple, but not that fraction further to get into
the non-coupling position. Kadee supply a dry lubricant - so a known problem ?

Now I'm happy enough for us to cut magnet holes in the layout proper.
This piece has been a test board on which I've had to learn all the likes
and dis-likes of the system. We demand good reliable operation.

It's been more fun though just painting and playing around with wagons !!

Part painted 5 plank as seen earlier with 'stretcher' to bow the sides. This
wagon weighs 4 ozs !!



Geoff T.