St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Post by **Bufferstop** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:28 am

Check the ordinary "choc-block" connectors anywhere red and black are adjacent.

ParkeNd · Post by **ParkeNd** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:53 am

I know nothing of DCC wiring - but the large number of "ovals" created in the middle of the board by the slips from one track to the other, and then back again, must surely create the potential for a negative rail to be connected to a positive rail when the points are operated - End2end says earlier in the thread that the short circuit is alleviated by switching the points. A DC layout builder would be so worried about this that IRJs would be used between sets of points with a new feed the other side. I can't see the IRJs - is this a possibility?

End2end · Post by **End2end** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:49 pm

Sorry ParkeNd, just to clarify "Before properly laying the track I temporarily laid it, securing the rear portion of the layout leaving the front portion loose and although there were some short circuits, changing a couple of points would stop the short circuit."

This was when there were no droppers installed, only jumpering tracks usuing crocadile clips at the end of some of the sidings, not all. The top right hand side tracks, the top lower track, the top left hand tracks and the top lower track.
Which would lead me to think if I had jumpered all then there would have been a constant short circuit too perhaps?

I did some major testing last night doing different things (although vacuuming at 1-3am was a no-no

) and with only 1 set of wires coming from the controller to bus, with 1 set of droppers attached there was still a short circuit.

Today I will firstly vacuum the whole layout then test, then remove each set of droppers (from thier connecting blocks attached to the bus) one at a time and test each time until all droppers or the offending droppers have been identified.
And just to mention, there are no IRJ's anywhere. Being as it is DCC with dead frogs I thought I didn't need them.

Thanks
End2end

ParkeNd · Post by **ParkeNd** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:26 pm

End2end wrote:--------------------------------And just to mention, there are no IRJ's anywhere. Being as it is DCC with dead frogs I thought I didn't need them.
Thanks
End2end

Can someone who knows DCC wiring confirm this or otherwise ? For certain page 9 of "Peco Wiring the layout Part 1" shows for DC wiring (the booklet doesn't cover DCC) that with insulfrog points even an IRJ is required between the junction of two points connecting an inner and an outer circuit ,otherwise the movement of the point blade will join a positive rail to a negative rail (or vice versa).

End2end · Post by **End2end** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:47 pm

ParkeNd wrote:Can someone who knows DCC wiring confirm this or otherwise ?

Yes please.
After extensive examintation and hoovering the track, I set about removing one or two sets of droppers at a time until only one set were left connected, which of course wouldn't cause a short circuit anyway, but to no avail. I added one of the dropper pairs from completely the opposite side of the layout (rear) but again this gave me a short circuit even with all points set to straight through. I'm think I am staring at the same soloution ParkeNd, but will wait for confirmation from another more knowledgable member.
I have one last thing I can try while I wait for a response and that is to remove the WAGO connectors and replace with normal terminal blocks just to see if it is those that are causing the problem.
Just out of interest (and maybe a possible future need

) can some one tell me which IRJ's I should be looking at for Peco Setrack?
Thanks
End2end

End2end · Post by **End2end** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:01 pm

Removing the WAGO connectors and changing them for normal connecting blocks did not work either.
Temporarily hit the buffers until I know whether I need IRJ's and which to buy if I do for OO Peco Setrack.
Thanks
End2end

End2end · Post by **End2end** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:27 pm

Just reading back on my layout threads and posts, I think building St. Blazey's rear about face, not being able to concentrate on a lot of the electrical side of things has certainly left things like isolation and some circuitry to be desired

Something so critical and quite an effort to fix after the track has been laid.
Oops

Thanks
End2end

Post by **Bufferstop** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:28 pm

The IRJs on the twin oval layout are needed because in DC working the polarity on the two loops will at times be opposite, not the case with DCC. Trust nothing, prove everything. Test with no droppers connected, then with the bus not connected, then without anything connected. Stop when there's no short circuit and start looking back the other way, prove the bus, if no short circuit connect just one pair of droppers, at a time until you get the short circuit back.

End2end · Post by **End2end** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:36 pm

After some more testing, removing all the droppers and testing the bus, then testing and adding, if not shorting, each pair of droppers to the bus I am left with 5 pairs of droppers causing shorts.
So with only the non-shorting droppers attached to the bus I can move a loco somewhat.
I have drawn on the plan the routes which work and do not work and 2 areas where they are dead because droppers in those 2 locations are yet to be added, but they will be once the short circuits are shorted out.
Yellow = routes that have no short circuit and a loco can run
Blue = Non droppered dead sectinos
Red = short circuit runs. If the points are changed onto any of these routes I get a short circuit.
White Boxes = Where droppers are and if connected cause short circuits
Slowly shunting to a soloution.
Thanks
End2end

End2end · Post by **End2end** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:43 pm

And just to add, these are the dropper locations, excpet for the 2 purple ones to the right yet to be added.

Thanks
End2end

mjb1961 · Post by **mjb1961** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:41 pm

Hi ,I run on dcc ,reading the previous posts can I say first of all make sure all of your points have the dcc clips fitted ,secondly you should not need all those droppers ,so disconnect them all and just connect one set and see what happens ,,,,also make sure there is no debri on the tracks ,personally I think one set of your droppers are the wrong way round causing the short ,it might not look like it is but it is ,I know ,I had it with mine,,,,,,

Edit ,,meant to say ,with dcc the whole layout needs to be live permanently and therefore no irj,s required ,,,

Post by **Bufferstop** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:10 pm

There's no point fitting the clips before you've found the causes of the short circuits, they can only complicate the fault tracing by adding extra feeds. What's the state of the various red sections if you leave the droppers disconnected. There's more than one cause of short circuit. All the clips do is ensure that the point blades can't isolate a dead end, so if there's a short circuit on the dead end you spread the effect to the other tracks. I think you've already discovered that effect. Add a line to your diagram showing the bus with the below board connectors.

End2end · Post by **End2end** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:12 pm

With all things and advice (from both camps) considered, I shall get hold of DCC clips and see if that solves the problem. (Anything rather than having the lift the track once more).
mjb1961, when only one set of droppers are attached it makes big swaithes of the layout dead. I actually used a microscope to check all along the tracks for debris to no avail. Also I can imagine people kicking themselves over a cross dropper pair

but all droppers are correct. Checked and checked and checked again. The plans and colour coding system for St. Blazey's stems from my experience being a broadcast wireman / recording studio builder..... wiring is my life (excluding the electorincs part

)

Thanks
End2end
I was composing as you were responding Bufferstop....i'll get back you.

Post by **Bufferstop** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:29 pm

Just to extend the trust nothing prove everything they are all Hornby or Peco set track points, not previously used or modified.

mjb1961 · Post by **mjb1961** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:44 pm

Hi End2End,the dead sections of the layout could be due to not making live all the points ,I take it you have insulfrog ?you could try something ,fit dcc clips to all the points on the top part of your layout ,or the bottom if you have enough and connect the one set of droppers to that section and see if it shorts out ,if it is all good then you need to fit dcc clips to all points and it should be good ,,,,,,mjb

New Railway Modellers Forums

St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building