Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post your design ideas for any layout that you are planning to build in the future. Keep members up-to-date with your designs and future plans for your layout.
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centenary
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Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by centenary »

Mods, if this isnt the right forum for this, please move as appropriate.

Im not sure if this will help any newbie. Im sure many older sages will be nodding and thinking 'Yeah, been there, done that' etc!

Tools: Im hopeless at sawing and I knew to build good, square baseboards, Id need to buy some tools to achieve this. They always come in handy for other projects anyway. I already had some basic tools but bought a Metabo mitre saw and a circular saw to make the task easier. Yes, you can get your wood merchant to cut it for you but there's always something the wrong size or improvisation needed later. A cordless drill \ screwdriver will save manually fastening all those screws in the wood frames while a metre long spirit level helps get everything plum. Safety glasses, ear protectors and work gloves might be scoffed at but why take the risk without them?

Ive already used both saws on other projects and number 1 son has as well so the investment was worth it for me.

Building the baseboard frames: was a lot quicker and easier with a few tools. You dont have to be an expert (Im not) but if you can measure twice and cut accurately once, you should be good to go. I planned to build in sections so the layout could be dismantled at a future date if required. Access to the middle of the layout was required as we're both getting on and a 'duck under' wasnt suitable. Having watched a few YT vids, I decided a lift up section was needed. OK, the first effort was botched so had to dismantle, rescue what I could and have another go. Im pretty certain this effort ticks the boxes. The point is, you may be fit enough to duck under your layout now but, what about is 5+ years?

Baseboard frames were made from smooth planed 3 x 1 timber in 4.8m lengths and 12mm thick exterior grade plywood 8 x 4 sheets. Most of the plywood was pre cut by the woodshop and I asked for all sizable offcuts to all be delivered with the rest.

The afore mentioned mitre saw made short work of cutting the timber to suitable lengths for the frames while the circular saw made trimming the plywood offcuts, simple. The frames were glued with woodworking glue \ PVA and suitably sized screws.

If you're building in a garage like me, the floor may have a built in drop from one end to the other or be uneven. Unless you're an ace carpenter, dont even try to cut your baseboard legs with pin point accuracy. Instead, get some adjustable feet from Amazon or EBay. There are various types and easy to fit. These will make getting your baseboard spot on level easily as they can each be adjusted so each leg is the required height.

Layout planning: Might be overlooked in the haste to get started but you'll regret it if you do not plan ahead and, be prepared to make changes as you go on. Do not forget the position of any crossbeams when planning baseboards and track layout. You dont want to find a point or slip is positioned such that you cannot then fit the point motor or route any frog wire. The far right baseboard was already in situ before planning the layout and unfortunately, Ive had to position a couple of points that stradle crossbeams. Cannot be helped and I didnt want to build a complete new board just because of this.

Decide how much scenic detail you want pretty early on in the design process. If you want big embankments, you'll have to reduce the actual track design. I kind of forgot about this and realised too late I didnt really have a lot of space to build any big embankments. Hmmm!

The location of your layout will have an impact of how big it will eventually be and the scale you use. Im fortunate to half half of an integral double garage. OO scale, no problem, I thought! Only it is surprising how much space an OO scale layout can take up and still not look much, especially if you want no curve to be less than 3rd radius imho.

I could have gone N scale and build a layout with a lot more going on but stock size and eyesight would have made it too much of a challenge. Hornby TT wasnt available and Im still not convinced it will be a success kind of making OO the default choice.

I purchased AnyRail to help with the track planning and baseboard design. What a godsend it turned out to be. I had intended to build something along the lines of Topley Dale but with a larger station. One reason or another, I just couldnt get it to work although some parts made it into the 'final' design. In all, I must have gone through 25 - 30 iterations of design before I had something I was starting to feel happy with. Imagine doing that on paper and I have still done a few tweeks.

With Anyrail, you can select from a library of different track manufacturers, scales etc, set parameters such as your minimum curve radius and easements into them and let the software calculate smooth inclines \ declines if you want these on your layout.

Once I was happy with the design, I set the print parameters in AnyRail to track centre line only and 1:1 scale. Turning on page numbering allowed me to identify those pages I only wanted to print saving ink, paper and blank pages. I only printed out points and slips positions, curves and corner sections and figured relatively straight lines could join the resultant gaps. The track centre lines were transferred to the boards by sticking down the printed pages then using a clothes pattern pin wheel. After that, I went over the pin wheel marks with a marker pen so I coulld see where to lay and glue the track bed down.

DCC or DC?: No contest for me. Not wishing to offend anyone but DC is old technology. There's probably little difference in how complicated or ease of installation each is compared to the other but, it just seems a slam dunk to me to go DCC with all the features it gives to locos, track and accessories. The temptation may be to start with DC then convert to DCC later. IMHO, that will just cost more in the long run and will eventually be an obstacle to actually making the conversion.

A word of caution, if using DCC and you want ABC braking sections, slowing sections and auto reversers etc, it's better to plan these in during the planning \ build stage. Having to make wiring changes to accommodate these features on a fully built layout might not be for the faint hearted.

Track: Code 75 or 100, flat bottomed or bullhead, wood or concrete sleepers?[/b] Apart from which track code you'll use, perhaps the era you intend to model may have a big impact on deciding the other options. If you want to model Era 11 then concrete sleepers would be your choice. Heritage or a time before concrete sleepers were common, you probably will go wood. Similarly, the choice of flat bottomed or bullhead. If you want to go bullhead, this means Code 75 in OO scale will be the only(?) choice. Similarly, if you want to use Peco's Unifrog points, these are currently only available in Code 75 bullhead.

Im not particularly bothered about Eras and will likely run a cross heritage \ 1960s to late 1990s period stock, basically anything I like!

I wanted to use Unifrog as they save all the mucking around with electrofrog and look far better imho. This tipped me towards using Code 75 bullhead which turns out is quite an expensive choice! I could have used Code 75 FB but decided for looks to be consistent and use bullhead.

What I will say is Code 75's lower height than Code 100 means you have to be very precise and careful soldering droppers even if soldering to the underside of the track. As for rail joiners, what a PITA they are! Peco SL114 rail joiners for bullhead are tiny but do go on the rail with minimal fuss. They are ok on straights but extreme care is needed where track needs to be joined on curves. Yes, I know this is to be avoided but if you have greater than 3rd radius curves on your layout, you will need to do this. Due to the SL114's small size, rails can easily become disconnected when laying and aligning your track precisely

My suggestion for OO scale Code 75 bullhead, is solder 2 straights together at the joiners then lay the track and trim as required. DCC Concepts \ Legacy bullhead joiners dont fit Peco bullhead easily. Ask me how I know!

Peco also say SL110s can be used to join bullhead. Ive opened 3 packs of SL110s and not one fits onto the rail even after dressing the track ends. Trying to ease the joiners open is an even bigger PITA! Ive used thin bladed screwdrivers and a stanley knife to try and open these up but all Ive done is either ruined the joiner or ended up with something that looks unacceptable with lumps and bumps along its length.

To me, it is simply unacceptable that these rail joiners are so difficult to work with. If anyone has tips for opening up SL110s without ruining them, please let me know how.

So how's it going? The frames and baseboards are up and painted. 3mm deep cork trackbed, bought in 10 metre rolls have all be laid and glued in position. I need tolift some of the trackbed because I intend to have an engine shed near the top left of the shown track plan. However, I hadnt considered the width of the building and open areas within for the track. See, there's always something!

Ive started laying track from the bottom right points and outer lines. Ive tried various positions for droppers. My dropper wire is about 0.75mm, Code 75 is not much higher so, soldering on the outside of the track neatly is difficult. Soldering the droppers on the bottom of the track is the better option but then you have to be accurate drilling a hole in the trackbed else youmight find the track is pushed out of position by 5-10mm. Drill a large hole in the first place is the answer to this but be careful else your baseboard might start to resemble swiss cheese.

The main DCC bus wire is 2.5mm copper core side by side premium speaker wire. This should eliminate the need to twist the bus wires together. Well, it works for Larry Puckett, The DCC Guy so I'll let you know if I have issues. Point motors are DCC Concepts IP Analogs that will be run off a 12v DC bus. Im considering using MegaPoint Controllers System 2 but Dave seems to be a little slow answering my mails about this. Maybe he's too busy working on Pete waterman's Making Tracks 3?

AR6Topley_Dale_A1b5aPRINTMaSTER7i.jpg
Bigmet
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by Bigmet »

centenary wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:30 pm ...Layout planning: Do not forget the position of any crossbeams when planning baseboards and track layout. You dont want to find a point or slip is positioned such that you cannot then fit the point motor or route any frog wire...
The solution. Go open frame layout structure. Saves a fortune on plywood track base, which is only a little wider than the tracks it carries, and if a track base support happens to foul a point motor location, you just shift it an inch or two. Particular strength, the layout can subsequently be significantly altered when 'new thoughts' occur, with little difficulty.

The other major advantage is that while the track base is plane or nearly so, the scenery is naturally all 'up and down' relative to track level; just like the real landscape, as it is freed from the tyranny of a large flat surface.
Jaz
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by Jaz »

I personally have a couple of track looks, cement in. One station, bog standard wood look elsewhere. We started with set track, and pulled the 100 out and went Peco 75, for ease of buying and cosy of buying, it addresses many of the issues, without taking us down a dead end. The 100 track still appears for non running areas, but is mostly in a box. trains happily run on 75. I have been to shows where they have gone for more ‘accurate’ track but then failed to get it running well, one show had to pull up all the track and go back to Peco 75! Not something I prefer to tangle with
Phred
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by Phred »

centenary wrote:
I could have gone N scale and build a layout with a lot more going on but stock size and eyesight would have made it too much of a challenge.
Good to point that out. It's a temptation for people to go for a smaller scale so that they can pack more in, but without 20/20 vision and steady hands N scale can be absolutely torturous.
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stuartp
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by stuartp »

SL-110s - they can be made to fit but at some effort because thats not what theyre designed for. I use them for joining Code 75 BH to FB. Oen up the ends very slightly, fit them to the FB first then force the BH in with a pair of pliers, holding the BH as near to the end as you can get and keeping the fingers of your other hand well clear of where the end of the BH is going to go when it slips.

To fit them to BH put the fishplate on something flat with a lip (bit of scrap ply with a bit of stripwood glued to it ) and use that as a stop while you force the BH in with pliers again.

If you need insulated rail joiners use the N gauge ones, the Code 75 ones are way too long and sloppy.
Portwilliam - Southwest Scotland in the 1960s, in OO - http://stuart1968.wordpress.com/
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Mountain
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by Mountain »

Reading the advice given... There is a lot of good advice.... and there really needs people to share their advice which can help new modellers to avoid mistakes.

May I expand on this to say the choice between DC and DCC, the type of track used and other aspects all depend what the individual is trying to do, and what they intend to run, and what the individual personally prefers.

(I shortened what I wrote as I tend to write too much detail, but the above statement should sum it up).
Last edited by Mountain on Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bufferstop
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by Bufferstop »

Running DCC on a layout wired with switched blocks whether or not they are configured for cab control isn't complicated - you simply turn on all of the switches and leave them on unless there is a fault:- In which case you switch them all off and bring them back one by one until the fault returns. The last block to be turned on is the one with the fault.
You might want to introduce isolation gaps after the V rails and rewire the feeds for the subsequent block to the bus, but if it was correctly wired for cab control it shouldn't be wrong for DCC, just not optimal.
I'll agree on the cost front..When I saw the likely cost running towards four figures I decided this was a game for someone who'd get more years from its benefits. The one thing that I felt I was missing out on was the constant full voltage, but if it became a problem for me, well for a lot less money I could switch to a couple of PWM (pulse width modulation) controllers which also feed the motors with pulses at full voltage, but that hasn't proved necessary.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
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Mountain
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by Mountain »

At the time it wasn't the cost as I had a good job. At the time it was the work both fitting decoders and the programming, but later I could not continue in that job so I went from a good income to zero income so obviously cost then later came into it.
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captrees
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by captrees »

Bigmet wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 1:41 pm
The solution. Go open frame layout structure. Saves a fortune on plywood track base, which is only a little wider than the tracks it carries, and if a track base support happens to foul a point motor location, you just shift it an inch or two. Particular strength, the layout can subsequently be significantly altered when 'new thoughts' occur, with little difficulty.

The other major advantage is that while the track base is plane or nearly so, the scenery is naturally all 'up and down' relative to track level; just like the real landscape, as it is freed from the tyranny of a large flat surface.
This.

Very well put. So many layouts are so flat. It may work in Norfolk, or Holland, even, but in reality how much interesting scenery is flat? The contours can go downwards too, to have rivers, canals, quarries.
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centenary
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by centenary »

Great to read all the comments so far!

Reason I didnt go open frame is imho it requires a lot more planning, wood, both for frames, supports and ply with more inevitable wastage. In earlier iterations of layout designing, I came to the conclusion inclines and declines, while nice to have and make for a more scenic layout, would just be too challenging for me to build. Even using AnyRail and the garage space available with no room for one helix never mind two just made it a none starter for me. More experienced builders may disagree but as Harry Callaghan says, 'a man's got to know his limitations'!

End of the day a big part of the build is your actual building skills, tools and available space. Unless you're quite accomplished at woodwork, tackling an open frame build is imho, more involved than a flat top although I will admit, makes for a more pleasing scenic layout.

A couple of other points Ive learnt is dont forget to plan the wiring buss and, just where you're going to have all your DCC power supply, base unit, mimic panel and or points switches and levers. Planning the wiring buss sounds easy, just follow where your track is going, right? But if you have a fiddle yard and want power districts, there's a bit more to it as it might be better to have a sub buss or two.

Similarly with the positioning of your base unit and power supply etc. These could go on a ledge or pull out tray etc. But dont forget, your baseboard might already be a full arm's length from front to back and a ledge for these might mean stock at the back of the layout is now just out of reach. A tray underneath? Great but dont forget if you're using under board switch machines to allow plenty of space between any the tray is under plus, your open frame design might complicate the build for this.
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Mountain
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by Mountain »

Yes. Planning a place for the control equipment and the relitive switches and panel indicators etc be it DC or DCC. Also planning where the frame of woodwork goes so ones point motors do not conflict with the frame. My last layout was 00 gauge and was on inch thick chipboard and Peco point motors were a few milllimetres deeper, so the few conflicting places just needed me to shorten the operating pin, and removing a few extra MM from the 2x1 wooden frame, and it was sorted.

Another two aspects often missed are room foe backscenes and their framework (If required) and on the scenic side, is space for signals, buildings, roads and other scenic items as it can be easy to fill baseboards with track! (Been there, done that! :D ).
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centenary
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by centenary »

[attachment=0]LayoutBuild.jpg[/attachment
Don't know what happened here, Apologies Centenary I was working on another thread, This was open underneath it and appeared when I'd finished. Lord know how it was opened I had hoped I could find the missing text somewhere in memory, How it got opened I don't know, presumably it was the edit window that was open behind the one I was working on
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aleopardstail
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by aleopardstail »

100% agree on planning below the board as well as above it, and be realistic too. e.g. map out where point motors will go - including working out the wiring runs and space for connectors.

Also though think about anything else you will want under it and work out where its going - e.g. consider making framing deeper a little if it means things can be mounted inside the framing, and work out space for any electrical gubbins like control modules in advance so they don't end up under where you need a hole for a signal pole or some dropper wires.

measure twice cut once works, but measure everything, even things you don't think matter - then record it all so you know where wires go and what they are for.

oh yes, and when drilling a board, before assembly drill out cable holes through the cross members, even if you don't think you will need them, way easier before the thing is assembled
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Mountain
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by Mountain »

Only downside with planning ahead is that one can spend so much time planning ahead that one does not get to build anything! :D

The esiest way I found in 00 to plan was to always have some set track curves handy to plan to work things out, even if one has planned to use wider curves in flexitrack... One will then have an idea of what is "Possible" and what is not, and the curves can double up in testing locos if one has not got ones layout ready.

As long as one knows what radius ones curves are (E.g. first, second, or third etc), one can then estimate where in comparisson ones running lines are going to be. So if one wants gentler curves, one has an idea of how wide a board area one actually needs to accomodate them.
Yes there are online tools today, but for me, there is nothing like getting the overall "Gist" of things than to start with some sectional track curves. (I have learned that if one does need sharper curves, to use sectional track rather than flexible track in these areas as one gets less running issuse, and then use flexible track for the rest. Why I chose code 100 (Also to run older stock) as it was easier to mix with flexible track for the rest in a space starved layout. (If one has loads of space available then one does not need to even think to keep some sectional track curves, but for most people it is a good idea).
Phred
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Re: Planning: Lessons Ive learnt

Post by Phred »

Mountain wrote:
Only downside with planning ahead is that one can spend so much time planning ahead that one does not get to build anything!
:lol: Funny because it's absolutely true!
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