B17 - Liverpool or J36

[Buelligan]

Looking for opinions on these. I know the B17 is from the railroad range, but which is the better runner? Are there any known problems with either, or one of them more prone to finding issues with track? Not 100% sure I'll be buying either at the moment, but I've had both open in tabs for over a week now and keep getting tempted to buy one.

Thanks

[Bigmet]

Either will run well enough, Hornby have a good mechanism in both.

The B17 will be potentially the more troublesome as it has added 'stuff to go wrong on it' in the way of outside valve gear and a leading bogie, but nothing that cannot be sorted. The older body mouldings used for this Railroad model were among Hornby's better pre-China products (and in one detail I prefer it to the current main range B17, the circular superheater header covers on the smokebox sides are better represented).

The J36 though, right up there with the best RTR OO steam models on offer. Fine mechanism with a near all metal body to give it the weight required for traction, I don't have a drawing so cannot check it for accuracy, but it looks right compared to photos and no-one is complaining, wealth of detail and well finished. And a steam era model railway cannot have too many 0-6-0s.

Required disclosure: I want as many RTR 0-6-0's produced as possible: it has taken a long time for the manufacturers to properly start on these unglamorous yet vital machines, and I want their production to continue as long as possible. Which means encouraging folk to buy them at every possible opportunity to send the signal via retailers: expand choice still further!

[Buelligan]

Thanks. There is something about the little 0-6-0's that I like, I've got express trains covered with my A4's, then there's B1 Mayflower for smaller passenger trains, or freight duties, and a Bachman C class. I'm edging towards the J36, I think it'd look good with a long goods train. But I am drawn to LNER green locos, though you do raise a good point about the outside valve gear being more delicate. Wish I'd accepted my wife offer to buy me the J36 last week, then I could've got the B17 myself! To throw into the equation as well, I've not got any tank locos, B1 and C class being the smallest I've got at the moment, so currently also tempted by a GWR pannier, or an LNER J94.

All this and my shed hasn't even been delivered yet for me to even start laying any track! And having just thought about that, I think I'll go with the J36, less to get worn out and suffer failure when I eventually get an outside track, plus the added weight (didn't realise these had a partly metal body) would hopefully give better traction.

[Bigmet]

The available shunter that is the best fit is the Hornby J50, LNER's standard shunter.

A question for you would be, are you interested in a coherent set of locos which were seen working together, or is it 'anything I like' will run on the layout? I'll give a couple of examples of how this works if going for a coherent set of locos for an LNER location:

A4, B1, B17, J50 = Southern area of the LNER, essentially between London and Doncaster 1943-47 (the B1 sets the date span as it appeared relatively late in the LNER's existence). The J15 (same construction as the J36 and equally good a runner) is the better fit.

At the London end of the LNER, the C class could appear off the Southern Railway, working a cross London transfer freight. Likewise some LMS and GWR (mainly) freight locos both tank and tender types. (I actually model the KX area in the BR steam period so have the ex-SR C class and Bulleid Q1 0-6-0s, ex-GW 57xx, and ex-LMS 3Fs both tank and tender types, G2A Stanier 8F, Fairburn 4P 2-6-4T, Ivatt 4MT; lots of ex-LMS because they are 'next door'.)

A4, B1, J36 = Scottish area of the LNER 1943-47. The shared routes, especially between Edinburgh and Glasgow and up to Aberdeen mean lots of LMS locos would be seen too. Nothing in the way of locos from the GW and SR, hundreds of miles away down South.

I can drone on for hours about this, but that's probably enough for now?

[Buelligan]

Feel free to carry on as much as you want I find it interesting to see the different areas with their own engines for certain types of journey etc. But my purchases are based purely on, do I like how it looks, rather than is it the correct period/area. So far I only have LNER engines, though the C class is actually early BR livery, and that is more because LNER locos just seem to look right to me. I've not seen any LMS or SR locos that I like. I do like a few GWR locos, but I will probably stick mostly with LNER. There will also be a couple of diseasels knocking around on the track too, a 43HST and a class 08 shunter. So it will be completely made up layout, featuring mainly LNER steam locos, but finding an LNER shunter that I like is seeming difficult. I really don't like the sloping tanks on the J50, the J94 is about the only 1 I do like, though I've not seen one of those for sale in LNER livery.

Out of interest, which area would the J94's have served? Presumably that would take the period to a very narrow margin.

Still not managed to order the J36, still can't quite decide for certain.

[Bigmet]

The Hornby J52 is smaller and prettier, but doesn't have a very good mechanism. Bachmann make the J72 which is rather dinky.

The reason LNER locos look so right is round top boilers. It's the right shape for a pressure vessel. And then there's the general aesthetic that was happily to be found among all the pre-group companies that made up the LNER. Among their hundreds of loco designs there were a few bloopers - inevitably enough - but most were at least purposeful and workmanlike in appearance and the best of them among the most handsome built in the UK. Go look at the Stirling Single when you get the chance, just perfection, and imitated by many of the other railway companies, though none quite as good as the original...

[Buelligan]

Thanks again, very helpful. The J52, again, not keen on, looks a bit odd. But that J72 looks quite nice. Nice proportions. I'll have a look for a J72, though a J94 will still be on the shopping list, probably in WD livery.

Nice to 'talk' to someone of the same/similar opinion. And you've managed to pin it down, they look like they're made for a job, and they good doing it. I can't describe what I don't like about LMS and BR standards as I don't know the terminology for the various parts, but while I'm sure they were very good, they just don't look right to me. I'm not a fan of the squared firebox, or tapered boilers. I have seen the Stirling single, and yes, that's a lovely looking loco! Also the (I think) class 812 (?) Caledonian Railway, preserved up at a Scottish heritage railway, is a nice looking loco.

I've just realised a glaring mistake of mine, showing my complete lack of knowledge, and just how much I buy based one liking how it looks. My C class is a Bachmann, it's in BR livery, for some reason I had it in my head it was an LNER loco, but I've just found it is in fact SECR, so it turns out there is a southern loco I like. I think I was getting confused having read about the 0-6-0 NBR C class, then seeing an 0-6-0 C class, liked how it looked and bought it, not noticing it was actually a different engine.

I should really get on a design a track plan rather than just buying locos.

[Bigmet]

There are 'design schools' detectable within the UK's steam railway works, some of them with family dynasties and connections by intermarriages behind them. In Scotland you'll search hard to find anything ugly from Cowlairs (North British Railway) and St Rollox (Caledonian Railway) both turning out series of very elegant designs which were well known in their day. And down on the SECR, the very talented designer Harry Wainwright took good earlier work and turned out a 'complete matching set' of most attractive and effective locos for his employer: the class C 0-6-0 goods you have, and there are models available of the H 0-4-4T suburban tank, P 0-6-0T light tank: and there is a model announced of the class D 4-4-0, in my eyes the most elegant loco of this wheel arrangement, and that's in a very strong competing field.

But of course perfection was attained at Doncaster. Stirling introduced the leading bogie express loco to the UK, with a carrying wheel under the cab for a 4-2-2, Ivatt developed a 4-4-2 and introduced the wide firebox which the trailing wheels allowed, and Gresley moved on to a 4-6-2, which set the pattern which saw out maximum power express steam traction in the UK.

Uniquely among major UK railways, the Great Northern Railway never had a 4-4-0 as its principal express passenger power, and unusually among the leading railway design shops it alone didn't have a 4-6-0 either. The wide firebox which the rear carrying wheel permitted was the way to high sustained power output, no narrow firebox could ultimately compete with a wide firebox in grate area for sustained maximum power production.

[Buelligan]

Thanks very much. I don't suppose you could recommend any good books on this sort of subject? I don't read much, but I have recently enjoyed a book about Brunel's career (a brief overview really, I must find something a little more detailed), and a book about the A4's, I think it was called Blue Streak.

I also finally got round to ordering a loco, I went for the J36 in the end, though I'm sure I'll end up going back and buying the B17 in the not too distant future.

[Mountain]

Why not build a freelance model of a preserved line? Will require a little thought and research of what type of locos were air or vacuum braked to pull what type of coaches etc... But is rewarding in itself as take a look at the different types of locos on lines such as the Gwili Railway in south Wales where they have a HST power car and a Royal MIl coach along side other various things including a miniture railway!