0-4-0 differences

[MarkOg]

Folks

Just purchased an LMS 0-4-0 pug R300 which I believe was made in 1993. I already have a later (Chinese) CR version R2672 which runs very well with a TCS decoder which I believe was made in 2008. I far prefer the LMS version, but how is the motor/running gear compared with the Chinese version please? Would the LMS version perform as well with the TCS decoder fitted?

Many thanks

[Bufferstop]

The chassis of the Margate built 0-4-0s were very variable, the best were OK but many were poor runners, after production was moved to China the quality improved. I would say that the current versions are always at least as good as the best that Margate produced. The simple answer would be to try to get a recent Chinese chassis and swap the LMS body over. There's a limit to how much of an improvement the decoder can make, starting with the best running mechanism you can get is the best bet. The ones where the pickups are connected by wire to the motor seem to coincide with the improved running qualities.

[GeraldH]

The Hornby ones with the later blackened wheels seem to require less cleaning so generally run better. The 0-4-0s made in the last 5 years[?] or so have much better slow speed control. I recall that the Hogarth Stone loco was one of the earlier ones with the better slow speed control, though I can't remember the year it was released. I used this chassis in one of my BNR locos. Be careful with second hand ones, as people have swapped chassis around quite a bit on these.

[Mountain]

There have been a few very small but subtle changes over the years. While the main outward visual difference were the blackening of the wheels when production shifted to China, this in itself was the main difference for quite a number of years, until at a certain date (Approximately 2015 but may have been earlier or later than that, they made a few subtle improvements which further improved their running. (To say "Get one with blackened wheels" is neither here or there as most just have blackened wheels! Not to put you off the older ones they all can be made to run well even if some have an excessive top speed). Now these improvements both effected the ability for the loco to crawl at a very slow speed (Older versions if carefully adjusted and cleaned can crawl along slowly so I wouldn't worry too much), but also limited the top speed, to produce an incredibly little loco! And outwardly they look idnetically the same, but inwardly the Chinese have been a fair bit clever!
They changed the pickups for much springier lighter action pickups. The pickups may not last as long but time will tell, but as long as they wheels are clean, the locos can crawl incredibly slowly even over insulated points! (Clean both the wheel treads and the whole of the backs to these wheels... Many people forget the backs and don't see the difference and assume the locos are no good).
The second noticable improvement in slow running is totally non-visible and I have never had cause to check this, but I was told that inside these little motors now have 5 pole armatures. I don't know if they still are 5 pole or not, as it could be they have used finer motor windings. either way it has vastly reduced the excessive top speed of the motor while using the same or similar gears. (Can't visually see any difference in the gears).

I have been using these little locos from around 1977 onwards and out of all these years, I can honestly say that in all the body styles and chassis types (Only really three chassis types over many, many years since Triang started making their little version... These plastic chassied versions started off by sharing some of the same parts. Same wheelbase. Same motor as the first motor used on the plastic chassied versions (Which was the second (Visually) or actually, the third motor used on the Triang versions). The plastic versions having had three different motors though outwardly one may think there have been two. All of them I am happy with using any day!
There was for a short while a third chassis which I believe occasionally makes an appearance over the years, and that has what is known as the trans continental body. (Looks slightly American in (Almost German) design with no buffers). Now when these were first produced around 1976-1977 (Approximately), someone in Hornby had the bright idea of using square axles, and I am NOT kidding! While these can be made to run, it is a bit of a miriacle they run at all! Haha! It IS more than possible to update these to round axles BUT it needs parts from another more conventional 0-4-0. One has to change all wheels and change the cog on the axle as wdll as thr cog has a square hole, and of course, one has to change both axles.
They did continue making these now and then but I do not know if the later versions that came out somewhere in the 1980's have round or square axles. Later versions were very brightly coloured and made to look "Toy-like" as were made for starter trainsets for young kids. The ones I knew had square axles had black bodies and red chassis. (Why I mentioned the loco looks German, but with the lack of any buffers it has an American look to it along with an American style bell and sand tank not far from its dome etc. Actually interesting things visually as a model!

[MarkOg]

I suppose the question is

Do I swap the body of the Margate LMS with that of the later Chinese CR? Bearing in mind that the CR loco does run very well at slow speeds, but the chassis of the LMS loco is in much better condition.

Or

Do I remove the decoder from the Chinese CR and wire it in to the Margate LMS loco? I would not want to do this if it means poorer performance at low speeds.

I suspect I'll have to try the latter and see what happens......

Anyone know if the motors are the same or different?

Cheers

Mark

[Mountain]

The motors are different internally on the slower running versions. The pickups are different as well. The chassis are the exact same for most of the budget 0-4-0's with the ONLY real main difference being that some designs have external cylinders with piston rods and others don't. Other than that, the bodies can easily be swapped.
Two small slots at the back of the chassis and two clips near the front just slightly back from the cylinders. (See where the cylinder gap is if one gently pulls the chassis away from the body? If one wiggles whilw pulling the chassis should come off as the clips are just inward and back from the cylinders. Be aware the motor metal retwining clip could get stuck on th body so take it easy... But yes. Chassis are the same as nesrly all thr budget 0-4-0's with the exception of the Trans continental body type and the old Triang metal chassied type (Along with the new expensive 0-4-0 models which retail at over £100 each which are totally different designs, all the rest are of this same basic chassis design. Their mountain clips are in the same place. They are the same apart from the internals of the motor and the pickups. Easier just to swap chassis which is a very simple job to do!
Decoders will be hard wired in I suspect so this is the only concern. If hard wiring in a decoder one needs to isolate the pickups from the motor terminals.
I know the old Lenz N gauge decoders could be hard wired and easily fit in the chassis area beneath the cab. (Ensure the decoder does not electrically short on thr coupling hook). Decoders need to be small but as motors don't draw much power, N gauge decoders are ideal. (Need hard wired type).

The only difficult bit with modern Chinese slow running versions are that the pick-ups can be a bit of a challenge to get back in if one has removed them! (Going by memory) but I believe the chassis were kept the same where the new pickups were... Have to go by memory as I dissmantled my chassis to make a hybrid of old and new using the metal Triang chassis on one of my locos. I do not remember the chassis area where the new pickups were to be any different to older plastic chassis designs. (I used the old metal Triang chassis (Triang chassis not suitable for your chassis swap) with modern Hornby wheels, axles, gears and motor for my chassis hybrid project, though it required me to make new pickups and a lot of chassis milling and cutting to fit my loco body (A LOT of work which required holding the new Chinese motor in the Triang motor cradle via two small cable ties). (The Smallbrook Studio body version I use has its own pistons so I did not need the chassis to have pistons)).

[Mountain]

Sorry. Overcomplicating my reply. Chassis are the same as unaware there was any difference between the two as as far as I remember, the new ligter touch pickups fit in the same place as the old chassis pick ups did. There maybe a tiny moulding pin on modern chassis to hold the new pickups..(Can't remember as chassis was later used with older parts for another loco that needed a plastic chassis replacement... They tend to break and become extra flexible with rough handling by children BUT just carry on running like that for years so it was me just being fussy on another loco to use the chassis for it as it was a spare good one after I used parts for my Triang chassis conversion project). If so one can just add something to use instead like glue or double sided tape? But as far as I remember they are the same. Worst case senario and one can use the old design beefier pickups though they will need careful adjusting for slow running, but ensure they are isolated from the motor if hard wiring to DCC.

[Mountain]

The chassis of the Margate built 0-4-0s were very variable, the best were OK but many were poor runners, after production was moved to China the quality improved. I would say that the current versions are always at least as good as the best that Margate produced. The simple answer would be to try to get a recent Chinese chassis and swap the LMS body over. There's a limit to how much of an improvement the decoder can make, starting with the best running mechanism you can get is the best bet. The ones where the pickups are connected by wire to the motor seem to coincide with the improved running qualities.

Totally agree about the new improved chassis being a good plan but would like to add this. (Hope you don't mind me quoting you).
Slow running qualities in older Margate chassis were actually good if their pickups were adjusted "Just right" as I had a Margate example which would crawl like a dream!
Many modellers don't have the patience to get the pickups to touch all four wheels without the pickups adjustment being too strong (Which prevents slow running). Get it right and they run nice and slow.
Another thing modellers often miss, is they clean wheel treads but forget to clean the inside backs of the wheels which are a crucial part of their current collecting abilities.
There were some 1970's to early 1980's models which had very thin chrome on their wheels so this csn be an issue for some as the chrome comes off. Most years of Margate manufactured 0-4-0's were fine, and if one has a few spare wrecked donor locos, one can easily find half decent wheels. Only real "Disaster" was the transcontinental body that had a totally different chassis and had square axles! Was a bit of a disaster to be honest. Can easily be upgraded to round axles BUT will need new axles, new wheels and a new gear cog, so one is basically rebuilding most of the components on the chassis to do this. Actually one will get a rather unique model as though many of these were made, few modellers kept them on their layouts (Parts bin!) so finding one to convert will make a loco which is rarely seen on layouts! Has to be a nice project and will be simple to do as all one needs is a donor chassis for parts!

[MarkOg]

OK - now slightly confused

Motors - are they the same or will the LMS one perform worse at slow speeds - other things being equal? Could one possibly transplant the motor from the CR to the LMS if the CR motor is better? As I say, the LMS chassis is in better condition externally so I would like to use that if at all possible if it does not compromise things too much.

Pickups - do you mean the copper wipers on the wheels? Those on the CR are strips of thin copper - one on the back of each wheel. Any idea what the LMS ones are?

Guess I should just wait until the LMS one arrives!

[Mountain]

The new motor (If the right one) runs with a slower top speed, so changing just the motor will limit the top speed.
The improved slower running at crawling speeds is mostly due to the lighter sprung pickups which touch the wheels with a lighter touch, so that the loco is free-er running to crawl. Slowspeed crawling for model locos is mostly about how finely tuned their pickups are. Gearing is actually secondary to that though motors gearing does make a difference as it applies more torque to overcome the friction of the pickups, but mostly it is about the pickups because if that were adusted just right, the chassis will roll really well. (If one has ever tried a nice chassis without pickups (Such as the older lovely stiff Triang chassis), and spins the wheels, they just keep spinning freely even with the wheel con-rods until one then adds the pickups!)

Yes. The pick-ups are the copper wipers. Their job is to collect the current going to the wheels via the track.
He newer ones are much thinner and springier and are soldered via wires to the motor. The older ones are beefier and are larger and come up to directly touch the motor terminals without the need for wires.

The DCC chassis will have to have been converted so that the motor and the pickups didn't touch each other but went to the decoder instead.

[RAF96]

The older ones as stated had the motor brush tags at the bottom to make direct contact with the pickups. DCC conversion of these was to invert the motor bringing the motor brushes to the top and sleeping the pickups against shorting on the motor body.
As far as I know the newer slower motors have the same gearing but incorporate a dirty great resistor as a rev throttler.