I have three class 66's. Andrew Scott, Bill Bolsover and another that i won't name due to a dispute with the seller - we'll refer to this one as 3.
Andrew Scott and Bill Bolsover both came from the souvenir shop at the bluebell railway - big shout to them as they have the best souvenir shop of any heritage line i've been to with a vast array of models and supplies to drool over.
Anyhow, Andrew Scott is great. Brilliant acceleration and will not hesitate to pick up speed at all. It will also run at full speed very fast, handles medium speeds well and even slower speeds are pretty good.
Then I bought Bill Bolsover which has become a disappointment for quality from Hornby. I can only assume it was made on a Friday. It's sluggish to accelerate, can not hold a fast top speed like Andrew Scott and is a bit of let down. I've returned it to Hornby, they adjusted the pickups and claim to have replaced the motor. This made no difference at all. It went back again and they claim to have replaced both bogeys. Until recently I hadn't noticed however the pickups have clearly been manually adjusted as they are all bent - not straight like they are when new. They then sent this back saying it out performed their own 66's that they have, was much faster, worked well on slopes etc. I don't believe them and nor do I believe they changed anything on it due to the pickups no longer being straight. They've clearly adjusted them due to finding problems that they won't admit to. In one direction it's seriously sluggish. In the other it does perform a bit better but still not like Andrew Scott. I did notice that both sets of middle wheels don't turn freely - quite possibly causing enough drag to slow it down at slow speed. One set also catches on one set of points and derails the bogey (I'd mentioned a problem to Hornby with this loco tripping the power on points - something else they claim they could not reproduce). Even if i lube them with my precision lubricator, the wheels don't free up. I've emailed Hornby again and now their contact is refusing to reply yet alone acknowledge the pickups not looking new on the replacement bogies. This loco has really annoyed me.
Recently I purchased 3. It's a great looker and I drooled over it. The seller sold it to me as "New" however it turned up with evidence of a previous life and certainly isn't new. I'm still in dispute with the seller so i won't say much more on that. I did however decide to test it out. It ran wonderfully - just like Andrew Scott and I was just mulling over dropping the dispute and keeping it. I really like the thing and had been wanting it for ages. Today my son set it going round our 8x4' track on a medium speed. Some 20 mins later i've gone back to his room to find it crawling round and nearly stalling - (reminiscent of some of the Eurostars that do the same thing and then blow a capacitor). It was literally behaving like it was tired. I stopped it and sent it in the other direction - performed as normal but going back in the "tiring" direction, it's gone sluggish like Bill Bolsover. If i physically lift it and turn the loco round, the same thing seems to happen in opposite directions.
Given that Andrew Scott still runs reliably, i'm assuming this is not a track problem.
I'm wondering if the gearing in these locos is up to standard? - they typcally seem to spin on plastic shafts and i'm just wondering if these wear down and slow down the gears from rotating freely?
If i run all three locos next to each other on their own tracks, the performance difference is quite clear. Andrew Scott and 3 were yesterday pretty much the same but after 3 had a 20 minute run today and became sluggish, it's now clearly not performing like yesterday.
The only difference I can find is the capacitors and motors inside them.
Andrew Scott Cap: 104, Motor: M431C 09210
Bill Bolsover Cap: 103, Motor: M426C 09210
3 Cap: 104, Motor: N242C 09210
As you can see Bill Bolsover's cap is not the same but only 1 less than the other two locos.
Any advice please?
Class 66 woes
Re: Class 66 woes
I have never had one so I am only guessing here but two possibilities come to mind. The first is that the grease maybe maturing so could be going hard. Only a small amount of lithium grease is ever applied. I prefer no grease or absolute minimum grease, but some manufacturers models put lots of grease and this can cause future problems in years to come.
But also if motors have oil or grease which makes them run quiet (Motor squeel is vibration where a motor bearing points have become too dry and I try not to lubricate motors unless they squeel because it stores up issues, but noticed that modern Hornby motors seem vunerable to motor squeel).
Now if oil or grease was overdone it reaches the communtator brushes and burns a dry film onto them of the oily substance, and the motors then run very slow and will even have the burnt bits of oil short across the communtator plates so it trips ones overload cut out on the controller.
Remedy is to open up the motor and carefully clean. Modern motors are "Sealed types" so most people just replace, but can be opened up if one is careful and has patience as I have done it. One then cleans the commutator to remove the baked on oil and cleans the brushes and one may need to do this more than once as only takes a slightest bit ofnoil to drip in the wrong place... But then one may get motor squeel which is why motor was oiled to begin with. Best to combat this is a very small amount of white lithium grease on the outside shafts of the motor bearings but only enough to make motor run quiet.
Sometimes bogies are caked in grease from the factory. As rease ages in about 5 to 10 years or more it hardens (One does not know when model was made as model could have been made years before and sat in factory or sat in shop storeroom etc) and causes friction in the bogies instead of lubricating them. Can also cause bogie failure. Bogies should only have small amounts of grease in them to have "Just enough". I have come across so muuch grease inside some model bogies from new that I could have used them on my bicycle bearings as there was that much grease in there! Even bicycle grease in bicycle bearings can go hard if not used and may need regreasing. Old bicycles used to have oiling points instead which is why 3 in 1 oil was developed (Never use 3 in 1 oil on chains as one needs a light oil for chains that is not sticky) and the idea was less friction for the bearings as greased bearings have more friction, and also avoided grease dryingnout, so bearings would be placed into cups with grease to hold them in place, but then in use oil would wash grease out and give such free running wheels that even today can't be matched. Do not use bicycle oil on model train bogies as it may weaken the nylon cogs, unless is a model railway oil designed for it.
Hornby will have bent the pickups to try to optomise running as pickups create friction if pressed against wheels too hard. There is the position where they touch but gently touch which will create the best running. Is not easy to get right but once right, even the older Hornby budget 0-4-0's will crawl at incredibly low speeds so can be worth spending time getting this right, and this is done by hand and/or a small screwdriver. No quick and easy way. Bent pickups mean that someone has had great patience in trying to improve your model.
Hope you have more success in getting things sorted.
Personally think loco designs today can be the problem as mechanisms are getting too complex and motors are getting too weak to aid slow running. But can't say about the class 66 as never had one.
But also if motors have oil or grease which makes them run quiet (Motor squeel is vibration where a motor bearing points have become too dry and I try not to lubricate motors unless they squeel because it stores up issues, but noticed that modern Hornby motors seem vunerable to motor squeel).
Now if oil or grease was overdone it reaches the communtator brushes and burns a dry film onto them of the oily substance, and the motors then run very slow and will even have the burnt bits of oil short across the communtator plates so it trips ones overload cut out on the controller.
Remedy is to open up the motor and carefully clean. Modern motors are "Sealed types" so most people just replace, but can be opened up if one is careful and has patience as I have done it. One then cleans the commutator to remove the baked on oil and cleans the brushes and one may need to do this more than once as only takes a slightest bit ofnoil to drip in the wrong place... But then one may get motor squeel which is why motor was oiled to begin with. Best to combat this is a very small amount of white lithium grease on the outside shafts of the motor bearings but only enough to make motor run quiet.
Sometimes bogies are caked in grease from the factory. As rease ages in about 5 to 10 years or more it hardens (One does not know when model was made as model could have been made years before and sat in factory or sat in shop storeroom etc) and causes friction in the bogies instead of lubricating them. Can also cause bogie failure. Bogies should only have small amounts of grease in them to have "Just enough". I have come across so muuch grease inside some model bogies from new that I could have used them on my bicycle bearings as there was that much grease in there! Even bicycle grease in bicycle bearings can go hard if not used and may need regreasing. Old bicycles used to have oiling points instead which is why 3 in 1 oil was developed (Never use 3 in 1 oil on chains as one needs a light oil for chains that is not sticky) and the idea was less friction for the bearings as greased bearings have more friction, and also avoided grease dryingnout, so bearings would be placed into cups with grease to hold them in place, but then in use oil would wash grease out and give such free running wheels that even today can't be matched. Do not use bicycle oil on model train bogies as it may weaken the nylon cogs, unless is a model railway oil designed for it.
Hornby will have bent the pickups to try to optomise running as pickups create friction if pressed against wheels too hard. There is the position where they touch but gently touch which will create the best running. Is not easy to get right but once right, even the older Hornby budget 0-4-0's will crawl at incredibly low speeds so can be worth spending time getting this right, and this is done by hand and/or a small screwdriver. No quick and easy way. Bent pickups mean that someone has had great patience in trying to improve your model.
Hope you have more success in getting things sorted.
Personally think loco designs today can be the problem as mechanisms are getting too complex and motors are getting too weak to aid slow running. But can't say about the class 66 as never had one.
Re: Class 66 woes
Honestly? Stop buying kid's toys from Hornby. There's ample evidence before you and elsewhere that the mechanisms in their Railroad product are being made down to a price, far too low a price for mechanism longevity.JickettyCan wrote:...Any advice please?
What you have described are almost certainly motor failures: the motor is the most expensive single piece in the model, and made to correct standard will probably outlast you. But bought in from the cheapest sources (achieved by what means at the manufacturer we don't know) there will be a high rate of failure in service, and these motors typically cannot be repaired. Changing the motor for an equivalent should be possible, there's motor 'equivalents' out there, all from China: but I don't know what, because I won't buy such Hornby products... Someone here is likely to know.
Hornby still know how to do it right, but then have to charge a price that many don't like. The X4026 'black can' motors found in my first Chinese made 'Hornby' product purchases are still performing after 18 years regular use, all the tyre plating worn away so the brass is on view, and with added lead ballast for traction so the loco is twice the weight it left the factory. Opened up the new Hornby W1 I have recently purchased, there's an X4026 'black can' motor (but it won't have that part number when Hornby get around to producing a parts diagram, because X4026 is for this motor type with a worm on the shaft, and in the W1 mechanism there is a flywheel on the shaft).
Likewise the similar motors in their 'Hornby' 08 and 30 mechanisms, and various Hornby steam models, likewise the motors in Bachmann and Heljan mechanisms, the oldest of which are still going as well as ever at 30 years in regular service; and hopefully from the newer entrants such as Accurascale, Cavalex, Dapol, Hattons, Kernow, KR Models, Oxford Rail, Planet Industrials, Realtrack, RoS, Rapido, SLW, Sonic: as and when they make loco models I want, which will then be operated regularly for at least ten years, which will find out how robust the motors they use prove to be.
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Re: Class 66 woes
Couldn't agree with Bigmet's comments more.
I only started my new modelling hobby in 2018 and started off by buying 1 Hornby 66 (James Nightall) and then later 2 more. Once I had the layout up and running, which includes a 1.2long metre gentle incline, the limitations of these locos became very evident. Traction tires and one powered bogie, they can't pull more than 3 to 4 bogie wagons up the gradient.
Of course I didn't know at the time of starting in the hobby the decades old Lima design of the things and Hornby screwing some more value out of such an old design concept. You get what you pay for, as in all things. 2 of these 66s now just feature as a workshop 'in repair' backdrop, while the remaining 66 is being refettled completely with mid-mounted motor and modern bogies and drive gear, as a 'how to do it' project for my own amusement and experience.
My loco fleet is now Heljan, Bachmann and an HO Roco shunter. Low speed grunt and power, built in weight, great control and running forgiveness over the metals. Even the wagons I have from Hornby have to be modified with metal wheels, more weight and removal of the ridiculous couplings.
It is a shame to have to diss their name as I have some 50+ year old Hornby layout stuff that with some repairs and TLC I have used on my current set up which only goes to show that their former quality has stood the test of time. Pride of place being a Rovex Girder bridge that I got for my 7th birthday...some 57 years ago!
I only started my new modelling hobby in 2018 and started off by buying 1 Hornby 66 (James Nightall) and then later 2 more. Once I had the layout up and running, which includes a 1.2long metre gentle incline, the limitations of these locos became very evident. Traction tires and one powered bogie, they can't pull more than 3 to 4 bogie wagons up the gradient.
Of course I didn't know at the time of starting in the hobby the decades old Lima design of the things and Hornby screwing some more value out of such an old design concept. You get what you pay for, as in all things. 2 of these 66s now just feature as a workshop 'in repair' backdrop, while the remaining 66 is being refettled completely with mid-mounted motor and modern bogies and drive gear, as a 'how to do it' project for my own amusement and experience.
My loco fleet is now Heljan, Bachmann and an HO Roco shunter. Low speed grunt and power, built in weight, great control and running forgiveness over the metals. Even the wagons I have from Hornby have to be modified with metal wheels, more weight and removal of the ridiculous couplings.
It is a shame to have to diss their name as I have some 50+ year old Hornby layout stuff that with some repairs and TLC I have used on my current set up which only goes to show that their former quality has stood the test of time. Pride of place being a Rovex Girder bridge that I got for my 7th birthday...some 57 years ago!