Point Motor Wiring

[Jkelly]

Hi all,
All my exams are now over so I have the time to work on my model railway for once! Now that the funds allow, I want to install surface mounted point motors to all my points. I'll probably use Peco or Gaugemaster, but not Hornby motors. I use a Hornby DCC Select controller. However, I want to keep the point motors to just analogue. As such, I figure the motors will be on a seperate circuit. Firstly, can I use the Select as a power output for my point motors if I want to keep them Dc (i.e. can I use a digital controller to run my point motors on analogue?). Secondly, if I need to get a separate power output, would a gaugemaster 16v cased transformer do the job? Cheers!

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If you want to run them analogue, you'll need:-
- Power source with 14-16 volts AC the Gaugemaster transformer is ideal.
- Optionally a capacitor discharge unit. It charges up between operations and fires a strong short pulse to ensure the motors switch over.
- Switches, push buttons, or studs on a panel to operate the points.
- the point motors.
- Optionally but very strongly recommended micro switches operated by the point motor to sitch frog polarity.
Your operating switches need to be [on]off[on] sprung to centre types or Peco passing contact switches, which unlike the Hornby type don't waste half of the charge by pulsing the position the points are in before pulsing the on that you want. (Don't ask me how they achieve that it's purely mechanical, done by cleverly moulded bits of plastic)

If you want a tutorial and reference for points take a look at this website from Flashbang one of our Mods. I think points start on Electrical Page 2 but it's all worth reading.

[Flashbang]

Hi
Using analogue point control and DCC (digital) for the trains is fine and IMO a great way to operate your point motors.
You say you have a Hornby Select. If this is powered from the as supplied 1.0Amp power unit then you will not really have sufficient power for DCC trains and solinoid point motors.
IMO the best option would be to use a totally separate and ideally 16 volt AC power supply for the motors and leave the Select to power and run the trains.
You mention the Gaugemaster cased (GM M1) 16v PSU this is ideal, but is quite expensive! Look also at the GMC-WM1 16v AC wall plug style power supply, https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magen ... c-wm1.html which when used with a Capacitor Discharge Unit (CDU) will move your point motors correctly. Note, GM products are usually cheaper from other stockists than GM themselves! The GM M1 has two separate 16v AC outputs so one can be used for point motor and the other for whatever you need?

When using analogue for point motor operation you need to have either toggle switches which are non locking sprung to centre off type called (On)-Off-(On) where the bracketed (On) can't remain in that position when the switches lever is released. Or use passing contact levers such as the Peco PL26 Note the Hornby R044 Black lever is not recommended for use with a CDU. Or use two momentary press to make push buttons for each point.

Ensure all wiring throughout is in at least 16/0.2mm equipment wire. Ideally terminating any factory fitted motor wires just under the motor into a three way piece of terminal block and connect the 16/0.2 into the other side of the block.

A CDU will store power and provide a 'beefy' pulse of power to the motors when a switch or lever is operated. Usually only one CDU is needed for the whole layout and is wired in circuit before any switches in the supply leads

[Jkelly]

Absolutely fantastic information. Thank you so much! Also, from a health and safety point of view, if I were to place a few point motors underneath a cardboard platform (Metcalfe), would that be a fire hazard with the heat from the motors?
So I need a transformer, the motors themselves (experience tells me that Peco is the best quality), Peco switches (red, as that's my favourite colour ) and a CDU. Perfect. Wish I had done this before I ballasted the track but when I started, but it was either wait a few months to get the motors or just crack on. I presume a transformer is enough to power lighting for a few buildings as well?

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The only danger to the cardboard platform would be if you left a point motor energised. If they are fed through a CDU and a momentary switch it's not a strong possibility, you could add a second microswitch operated by the point motor, in the common connections of the coils so that the return path is switched to the unselected coil as the point moves, the overcentre spring ensures that the movement is completed. I built one once, it worked but I wasn't sufficiently worried to bother keeping it. One big switch or a 13A plug to disconnect the whole lot when you aren't there is easier.

I presume a transformer is enough to power lighting for a few buildings as well?

,
Yes but you would have to connect them in pairs in series, or daisy chain strings of lower voltage bulbs, ideally you want your lights to be running underpowered by about 10% if they are bulbs to make them last longer and not melt any plastic around them. For led.s you need to user a bigger series resistor to dim them a bit or use an led dimmer module from Ebay, I've tried running led.s from an old analogue controller, but they first dim and then start to flicker and all at slightly different voltages, it can be a bit hit and miss.

[pete12345]

It's also worth mentioning that you don't have to use solenoid motors at all. Sometimes a simple mechanical system is easier, cheaper and more reliable. You can use stiff wire or wooden dowel rods secured to the underside of the baseboard, with an operating pin poking through the board to reach the point. A wooden bead or other handle finishes the end of the rod where it protrudes from the side of the baseboard.

[Mountain]

Also to mention I went for years without a CDU, and I used the stud and probe method. As long as one only touches the probe (A large nail which had the "Common" wire soldered to it) on the studs (Bolt heads where wires were attached on the back of the control pnel) and only touches the probe to the studs beiefly to the coils do not overheat it should all work well.
A CDU will give a sudden burst of current with a fair "Whack" as it slowly saves up the electricity and lets it out when required all in one go. One is meant to throw a point after one has turned the layout off to discharge the CDU just incase the very rare event should cause a spark (I read somewhere that one unlucky person had a fire break out after his layout had been turned off. Very rare... But as a precaution when I did buy a CDU, I decided to just throw a point after turning off just incase he was right.
The good point about a CDU is it stops any new person using your layout from burning out point motors because you may know just to touch the probe briefly, but others may not know that. (Mind you, it would take one to hole the probe on the stud for a long time to do this I guess? The noise says "That's enough" ).
Te other advantage of the CDU is those occasions where one has wired ones layout to throw more then one point together at the same time. One can actually wire ones control panel using a diode matrix so one only has to touch a probe on a certain route and have a few points change for that route at the same time if one is feeling clever!

Lots of possibilities!

And also as suggested, take a look at simple manual control. Manual control tends to be under-rated and neglected but real railways relied heavily on manual control to operate their points. They did use point motors as well for the distant points or if they had a more modern signal box. Usually for distant points unless ones layout is relatively modern in the setting of it. Mind you, some "Modern" signal boxes are getting on close to 40 or 50 years old!

One of the common ways used to manually control points (Apart from using ones fingers in a direct way) is by using old bicycle spokes. Fishing wire and springs can also be used, but if using fishing wire, it does stretch a little especially if the route is not direct, so it depends where it is used.
Using bicycle spokes under the board or even using wooden dowels is a nice simple method.
It all depends on ones layout and how easy or difficult it would be compared to where the points are.

And a bit about point motors themselves. (The makes you were mentioning are actually solenoids rather then point motors but ok... As long as we are talking about the same thing somwe know what we mean!) I have found that I have had success by mounting the solenoids directly to the undersidenof the point and cutting holes in the baseboard to accomodate them. One can use a thin piece of plasticard between the point and the solenoid to save having a visual hole there.
Others will use extended pins, so they can mount the solenoids to the underside of the baseboard itself, but I have found the further away the solenoid is, the more issues one has with the connecting bar flexing slightly and not throwing the point.
Mounting directly does need the right make of point solenoid for the right make of point. Do not be put off by not using a Hornby solenoid on a Hornby point as basically, though I have never bought a Hornby solenoid, they are just the same in principle and it is only going to be small differences in design that is unlikely to cause an issue. The key reason foe using Hornby solenoids on Hornby points is that they will be made to clip into each other just like Peco solenoids are made to clip onto Peco points etc. No other reason then that.
One can also mount point solenoids and motors to the top surface of the board for those hard to reach areas. One may need an additional adapter in some cases to do this. Some other brands of point solenoids or point motors are designed to be used with several difderent brands of point.

The only other consideration I can think of is some solenoids will only work with self latching points. (Self latching is the points ability via a little spring to click over and keep the point blades in position). If one makes ones own points, itis unlikely one has this self latching feature so one will need to get point motors or solenoids that have their own way of dealing with this.

Other then that, most of what you need to know has been mentioned!

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Aw Pete! You nicked my next suggestion, I was saving it 'for when the cost sinks in. I use the metal rods that were part of a suspended filing system, and when they run out I now have the 1930's original suggestion, bicycle spokes, with straightened paper clip for the riser to the tie-rod. I'm using the plastic heads from chart pins as knobs ( you can even colour code them to match the track plan!) and the brass bits from choc-block connectors as couplers.

[Flashbang]

Absolutely fantastic information. Thank you so much! Also, from a health and safety point of view, if I were to place a few point motors underneath a cardboard platform (Metcalfe), would that be a fire hazard with the heat from the motors?
So I need a transformer, the motors themselves (experience tells me that Peco is the best quality), Peco switches (red, as that's my favourite colour ) and a CDU. Perfect. Wish I had done this before I ballasted the track but when I started, but it was either wait a few months to get the motors or just crack on. I presume a transformer is enough to power lighting for a few buildings as well?

Normally there shouldn't be any problem with motors under a platform. They should never get hot - If they did, then there is a large risk for the point motors coil burning out. A CDU will prevent this. Obviously you should not glue the platform down as maintenance of the motor may be needed at some stage in the future.
When you mention a "Transformer" are you meaning the GM M1 twin output? If so, remember its two outputs are 16v AC. The GM wall plug power supply GM WM1 comes with a add on circuit board which does convert the 16v AC to around 12 V DC. However, I would not feed a CDU from the 12v DC output, I would rather use 16v AC.
If you obtained the dual 16v AC GM M1 unit then I personally would take one output for the CDU input and the other 16v AC feed it into a Bridge Rectifier which will then provide a reasonably good DC on its output. Something like this example would be OK to use...https://www.bitsbox.co.uk/index.php?mai ... cts_id=946

[Mountain]

Aw Pete! You nicked my next suggestion, I was saving it 'for when the cost sinks in. I use the metal rods that were part of a suspended filing system, and when they run out I now have the 1930's original suggestion, bicycle spokes, with straightened paper clip for the riser to the tie-rod. I'm using the plastic heads from chart pins as knobs ( you can even colour code them to match the track plan!) and the brass bits from choc-block connectors as couplers.

And using the inside metal pieces out of block connectors to fasten the paper clips to rhe bicycle spokes is a way to make things easy and adjustable.

Bicyxle spokes can be joined together using a longer style spoke nipple, or one can flatten the ends with a hammer and drill a hole which can be useful... I have spent years in and out the bicycle industry so I have a spoke roller threader which can be useful for things like this! Just avoid stainless steel spokes which are harder and don't take to roller threading.. Use ordinary spokes.
These days after spending years working with bicycles, the way that stainless steel spokes can snap in the most unexpected places and it is never just the one spoke with SS spokes. Several tend to go at once... I would not use them on my bicycles. (I do have the odd bicycle with stainless steel, but if I ever rebuild the wheels I will most likely put ordinary spokes in as to be honest, stainless steel spokes scare me after seeing the way in which they fail and how they give very little if any visual indication that they are ready to fail. Ordinary steel spokes are very visual and they nearly always go at the spoke head and rarely does one get several go at once. They just hang in there for longer). But in regards to uses of stainless steel spokes for model railway use? Axles! Ideal axles!

[pete12345]

Mounting directly does need the right make of point solenoid for the right make of point. Do not be put off by not using a Hornby solenoid on a Hornby point as basically, though I have never bought a Hornby solenoid, they are just the same in principle and it is only going to be small differences in design that is unlikely to cause an issue. The key reason foe using Hornby solenoids on Hornby points is that they will be made to clip into each other just like Peco solenoids are made to clip onto Peco points etc. No other reason then that.

And if you happen to find yourself with a Hornby motor and Peco point, or vice versa, the two can be made to fit together. The Hornby motor (as well as the points themselves) is a copy of the Peco design and the only real difference is the fixing tabs which are spaced slightly differently at each end. But they can be bent enough to make them slot into the other manufacturer's point.

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The Hornby motor (as well as the points themselves) is a copy of the Peco design

They are both copies of a Roco design, and there's some suggestion that for a time they were actually made at Roco's factory for one or t'other of them. Hornby's Settrack came out before Peco started selling one but well after Peco Streamline had become established. What puzzles me is that Streamline when it was introduced had the same sleeper spacing as the Roco settrack, was there an intention to sell the settrack well before it was released.