Which Bogies?

[ChrisGreaves]

I checked out a Canadian web site https://britishmodeltrains.ca because last month I paid $cdn42 customs on an order from the UK.

Item Hornby Dublo Gresley Coach bogies - 3 rail
Price 5.00
Question Should I be worried about three-rail? This funicular will not be powered, and if it were I am thinking of 2-rail OO modeling. The wagons are just wagons, after all, not powered coaches.
Likewise why should I care if they are coach bogies? A set of wheels under each end is all I care about.

Item 36037 BACHMANN B4 Bogies (2 per pack)
Price 19.00
Question $19 is pricey compared to $5, but it need not be a deal-breaker IF Bachman bearings are super-efficient. Energy is my enemy, so superlative quality in bearings is my watchword. Is Backman la crème de la crème?

Item BP184 LMS coach bogies with brass bearings - 1 pair
Price 5.00
Question Brass? Good or Bad? Better than Steel? Silver? Gold? Energy is my enemy here, so superlative quaility in bearings is my watchword.

Background notes
My funicular baseboard is built, I have scratched out the rest of my hair, and am in the position of buying two pairs of bogies.
I am building a Proof-of-Concept model here, not a Daniel.
There will be two parallel tracks, each with a gondola ore wagon, connected by a string that runs around a vertical-shaft pulley at the top of the incline.
The chute at the top will deliver a load of ore to the upper wagon which will then descend to the lower station, hauling the empty wagon up the incline. The full wagon will unload while the empty wagon is loaded, then the wagons will reverse directions and the cycle will start again.
The image will be that of a Perpetual Motion machine, but I have a trick up my sleeve!

Meanwhile, the ore wagons:-
(1) Gondolas because this is a POC and I want to be able to load up enough ore to deliver a fair whack of potential energy to the full upper wagon so that it can impart kinetic energy to the empty lower wagon.
(2) Bogies because I want to build my own wagon body. The baseboard is adjustable from dead-level (while I build, test) to an 85º incline , and all points in-between using a movable prop. I figure that I might have ore-wagons with ten-foot high ends at the lower end and two-foot high ends at the upper end to compensate for the slope; baffles in the wagons etc, but I have a reason for building my own wagon-sides.
(3) My focus is on ENERGY because the energy available is limited to the potential energy available through a load of ore (hence Lead, or better yet, Uranium pellets , 53-foot long gondolas with ten-foot high ends, etc. Entropy will be lurking around every corner stealing energy from me.

I appreciate all comments.
Thanks
Chris

[flying scotsman123]

The thing with coach bogies as makeshift wagon underframes, is that they tend to look exactly like that. Depends how fussy you are about that sort of thing. Of the three choices there, I'd probably go for the LMS ones, the B4 bogies are quite modern looking and quite expensive, the Dublo ones are very primitive and might be difficult to bodge a body on being what I presume is tinplate. As you say, brass bearings will reduce rolling resistance which you'll want for your project.

Personally I'd be looking at trying to find a wagon underframe. I found two on your website, this GWR 9'ft one and this LMS 11ft long one, which is perhaps a little too long. How many of those are in stock who knows, they both look like old stock. Peco and Ratio both sell 9/10ft wagon underframe kits which are normally readily available, albeit sadly not on that website, even though they do stock both Ratio and Peco products. If it were me I'd try and find a supplier of one of those that's convenient for you.

[ChrisGreaves]

The thing with coach bogies as makeshift wagon underframes, is that they tend to look exactly like that. Depends how fussy you are about that sort of thing.

Hi flying scotsman123. And thank you for the thoughts.
I am not fussy about looks; this stage is a proof-of-concept, so no scenery, no adherence to standards of Little Puddling. If I have to, I'll mount four parallel lengths of Peco and have VERY wide gondolas running up and down. It is, in short, close to a Physics experiment or a Mechanical Engineering assignment.

Once I get this working I can collect data for best-slope vs. best length of run, best material and so on. My first step, I reason, is to garner sufficient energy to make the thing work.

Of the three choices there, I'd probably go for the LMS ones, the B4 bogies are quite modern looking and quite expensive, the Dublo ones are very primitive and might be difficult to bodge a body on being what I presume is tinplate. As you say, brass bearings will reduce rolling resistance which you'll want for your project.

Brass bearings it is, then. A sight correction: I didn't mean to say that brass bearings are good; I just didn't know how good. I reasoned that they carried less sliding or rolling friction than soft plastic pins in soft-plastic sockets, but wondered whether modeling carried anything measurable better. That is nit-picking, I know, but energy is going to be the deciding factor here, since it is the potential energy in the uphill loaded wagon that drives the entire system.

Personally I'd be looking at trying to find a wagon underframe. I found two on your website, this GWR 9'ft one and this LMS 11ft long one, which is perhaps a little too long. How many of those are in stock who knows, they both look like old stock. Peco and Ratio both sell 9/10ft wagon underframe kits which are normally readily available, albeit sadly not on that website, even though they do stock both Ratio and Peco products. If it were me I'd try and find a supplier of one of those that's convenient for you.

Thank you, too, for these references. I began by thinking of wagon frames, but grew pessimistic and thought that perhaps regular wagons would not carry enough load (equals potential energy) for my initial version, and that led me to buying just the "trucks" and building my own wagon frame (base, ends and sides). I can't see the point in stripping down a good wagon just to replace the body.
Then too I was trying to maximize the load, even to the business of building an impossibly-long gondola; it does not need to go around curves after all, just up and down in a straight line.

A bit of overnight thinking however suggests to me that I purchase these wagon kits (two of each) at the time I buy the bogies:-
(1) It won't make any difference to shipping costs
(2) $6/$8 per unit is not as devastating as $250 for a locomotive (!) times four (!!!!)
(3) Once I get the monster working, I will have standard ore wagons to put in place for Phase 2
(4) It won't hurt to TRY these standard wagons briefly, just to see if I don't need the energy derived from custom mammoth gondolas. That is, bypass Phase 1 altogether.

Thank you again
Chris

[Bigmet]

First requirement, hard metal tyred wheels. Kit wheels, brass at least, bronze, nickel-silver, steel best. Ideally on polished steel pinpoint axles.

Best ever bearing material I have knowledge of in OO/HO model railway: UK Trix, while owned by Courtaulds. Moulded the whole bogie in a super slippy polymer, and with a steel pinpoint axle steel tyre wheelset these will roll away from rest on a 1 in 300. No lubrication required, no longer manufactured, identity of polymer unknown: moulding now fifty years old and as good as ever! Very unappealing to any manufacturer...

Kit brass bearings with steel pinpoint axles perform well, see 'clockmakers'. But they must be run for a few hours without lubrication to work harden the brass for best results. A PTFE spray thereafter works very well. Roll away from rest on 1 in 200.

RTR, ABS with moulded recess, with steel pinpoint axle plated brass or mazak tyre (Hornby's typical UK product);
RTR, ABS with moulded recess, with steel pinpoint axle chrome plated mazak tyre (Bachmann's typical UK product);
both nearly as good as brass, PTFE spray lubricant achieves near parity with brass.

RTR Phosphor bronze 'dimples' with chrome plated mazak pinpoint wheelset (Bachmann's split axle pick up system on coaches and MU's) better than the brass with steel pinpoint axle and steel tyre combination, and electrical pick up thrown in 'for free'. Close to the Trix product, but relatively recently introduced, no clue to longevity, but it's so good I don't care.

Clearly there are other RTR manufacturers, but my rolling stock is 80% Bach, 10% Hornby, 10% kitbuilt, 'others' lost in the rounding there are so few, so that's the data I have!

Plastics compatible PTFE spray lubricant. I use a bike lube branded as GT85 in the UK. No adverse results in 21 years use on both RTR and kit plastics. I am told there is something yet better much used by aeromodellers and drone operators, but not yet looked into that, as there's still about 15 years of contents in my GT85 can.

[ChrisGreaves]

First requirement, hard metal tyred wheels. Kit wheels, brass at least, bronze, nickel-silver, steel best. Ideally on polished steel pinpoint axles.

BigMet, thank you for this detailed reply. I have incorporated the first qualities/points in an email to British Model Trains, issued a few minutes ago.

... in a super slippy polymer, and with a steel pinpoint axle steel tyre wheelset these will roll away from rest on a 1 in 300.

This I have filed away (awkward terminology!) . If British Model Trains respond in a positive fashion with high-class bearings in stock, I shall push for better quality, my over-riding consideration being "Yes, but do you have it in stock?".

RTR, ABS with moulded recess, ...

Here some of the terminology escapes me. I suspect that "RTR" is "ready to roll", that is, out of the box, and onto the track.

Plastics compatible PTFE spray lubricant.

Another useful tit-bit. I had not got as far as thinking of lubricant, but of course every little bit helps in the arena of energy conservation.

In programming terms there comes a time to "start cutting code", and I now have my adjustable inclined plane, and want to begin collecting data by having wagons roll down inclines of varying degrees with varying loads (dried peas, gravel, popcorn etc.) doing timing tests, force required for the wagon to overcome standing friction, and force required to open and close the charge/discharge hoppers. Those coupled with (more awkward terminology!) loss of energy in various string/cable materials will help me determine future directions.

I may not meet my goal, which is a self-propelling charge/discharge cycle on two parallel tracks using mechanical energy alone as a source of power, but I think I will have fun trying!
Thanks you for your help.
FWIW I have attached a text copy of my email. (no I haven't; we are not allowed to attach TXT files here!)

Cheers
Chris

[Bufferstop]

FWIW I have attached a text copy of my email. (no I haven't; we are not allowed to attach TXT files here!)

No problem Chris
Good old DOS era Ctrl/c - Ctrl/V, lets you copy text from an email and paste it here as the following snippet from a random email shows.

This email was sent by eBay (UK) Limited, which may make use of its affiliates to provide eBay services. If you reside outside the United Kingdom, please find the contact data of your contracting party in the

[ChrisGreaves]

I checked out a Canadian web site https://britishmodeltrains.ca because last month I paid $cdn42 customs on an order from the UK.

A rapid response from British Model Trains:-

"This sounds to be an interesting and unusual project. All the items are 00 gauge. The new modern 00 Gauge items are normally supplied with metal wheels with pin point axles. To minimise friction further you can use the metal wheels with the metal pin point axles running in brass bearings. The Parkside Dundas range of wagons come complete with these wheels and bearings, The DAPOL kits also have metal wheels although they are running in plastic axle boxes which is normal for the ready to run items. The replacement Coach bogies are normally fitted with metal wheels with the pin point axles. If you want to fit brass bearings to a kit or ready to run item where they are not standard you will need to modify the axle boxes slightly"

I have asked them to choose the most energy-efficient items that they have in stock, ready to roll, and send me the URLs, then I shall place the order!

If at a later date I need to fiddle about with brass cups and steel pins, metal tyres etc I shall take a different approach from Daniel: I shall shanghai one of the teenagers who walk part my house daily (HUGE grin)

Thanks again for the advice
Chris

[Bufferstop]

Chris, I have oft times pondered the possibility of a funicular in our garden, it's the only sort of garden railway that would work here. Just from experience of modern RTR wagons on not quite horizontal baseboards the problems are likely to come from the lack of a braking system rather than friction in the bearings. I worked out a scheme for a "cliff lift" passenger funicular, with real water balancing rather than using the weight of the load. The car at the top was to be held by a coupling hook like the predecessors to tensionlock, latched over the end of the water tank which was supported at one end by a pair of springs. The springs were to be set such that a full tank would depress the end of the tank enough to escape the hook. Then at the foot of the incline a bufferhead on a rod would push a lightly sprung valve to release the water. A small garden pump would be continually circulating water from a tank below the bottom station, and a header tank would allow water to flow into the tank of either car at the top or simply drop from the filler pipe to a catch pit between the rails and thence down a pipe back to the reservoir at the bottom. Who knows? one day I might just build it.

[ChrisGreaves]

Chris, I have oft times pondered the possibility of a funicular in our garden, ...

Just from experience of modern RTR wagons on not quite horizontal baseboards the problems are likely to come from the lack of a braking system rather than friction in the bearings

I can see that, and that run-away wagons could pose a real problem on a model railway. However my funicular railway is a closed system, independent of any mainline running. The two wagons will be connected by a cable (chalk line?) and the energy in the upper, laden wagon will be consumed by the lower, unladen wagon ascending, and by the trigger mechanisms to open and close the hopper discharge gates. Braking is not my problem!
If the funicular railway were to be included in a larger layout, I would probably have it run at right-angles to the main line so that it occupied a narrow swathe of baseboard.

I worked out a scheme for a "cliff lift" passenger funicular, with real water balancing rather than using the weight of the load. The car at the top was to be held by a coupling hook like the predecessors to tension lock, latched over the end of the water tank which was supported at one end by a pair of springs.

This too I can see. “Falling water” as a source of energy is a marvelous idea.
I am particularly interested in the coupling-hook idea. I can see my upper car being filled from the coal chute, but had not yet figured out how to release the car when it was full. A spring-loaded platform (say goodbye to my kitchen scales!) which releases the wagon when an adjustable weight is reached (definitely the kitchen scales!) makes sense. I was counting on the initial motion of the laden wagon to trigger the gate-closing mechanism in the coal-chute.

… Then at the foot of the incline a buffer head on a rod would push a lightly sprung valve to release the water.

This too I appreciate. I had thought of a track-side post to snag a lever on the wagon; the lever would be arrested in motion, as would the attached gate, but the wagon would continue for another centimetre or so, and the gate would be dragged away from the hopper discharge opening, allowing the wagon to empty.
Later, when the upper wagon was full, it would drag the lower wagon uphill, closing the gate with a second track-side post.

A small garden pump would be continually circulating water from a tank below the bottom station, and a header tank would allow water to flow into the tank of either car at the top or simply drop from the filler pipe to a catch pit between the rails and thence down a pipe back to the reservoir at the bottom.

This is the sneaky source of energy for your system; Mine is even sneakier – to tiptoe out in the dead of night and tip the lower hopper contents into the upper hopper.

Who knows? one day I might just build it.

Oh good! I am ahead of you then. My hinged-baseboard is assembled. Today is painting day (I have a can of green spray paint, looks like SR malachite to my eyes), and I am in conversation with a bogies and wagon supplier here in Canada.

Cheers
Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

I checked out a Canadian web site https://britishmodeltrains.ca because last month I paid $cdn42 customs on an order from the UK.

I have this morning ordered
TWO "R6154A Hornby Procor hopper wagons "Readymix Concrete" (weathered) (Unboxed)"
and TWO Packets "36-024 BACHMANN LMS Bogies (2 per pack)"
The price with shipping etc is much more than I would have paid in Perth back in 1964, but I am smart, and put it on my BMO credit card, so The Bank Of Montreal is paying for it (grin).

I am impressed with British Model Trains prompt and courteous responses to my email purchases.

Now, back to the Funicular thread.
Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions.
Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

I checked out a Canadian web site https://britishmodeltrains.ca because last month I paid $cdn42 customs on an order from the UK.

I have this morning ordered ...

This morning the Canada Post package status is updated, so it DID arrive yesterday, despite the warning “Delivery may be delayed due to extreme weather conditions St Johns, NL”. We all had bright sunshine, fleecy lambkin clouds, gentle breeze all day yesterday. I am down to my last pail of rainwater ...

I roll up my trouser legs, hop on the bike, and ninety minutes later (chat with Velma, and then chat with David, chat with Kerry, chat with Tom&Fergus) like the six-year-old I am I feverishly scrape plastic from the carton, toss the polystyrene popcorn away (six years old, remember?) ditto the bubble-wrap, and voila! Two Steel-Wheeled Ore Wagons …

… and two pairs of steel-wheeled coach bogies in case I need to make humungous (well, four-inch-wide) ore cars.
Now I am praying for rain so that I don’t feel obliged to work in the shed or in the garden.
The adjustable incline is ready. The track is ready. The *NEW* **IMPROVED** hoppers are ready to be assembled. I have a piece of cotton string to link the wagons. All I need to do is build a sturdy base for the hoppers, and learn how to take a movie with my smart phone!

Full diary at http://www.chrisgreaves.com//Modelling/ ... /index.htm
Cheers Chris

[ChrisGreaves]

...Two Steel-Wheeled Ore Wagons …Funicular_20210515_110209.JPG… and two pairs of steel-wheeled coach bogies ...

The problem with an old house is that even the water in a glass isn’t level! There is no horizontal surface here. I resort to using my pill bottle of pulleys as a buffer-stop to take a photo of the rolling stock, and rolling it is!
I can see now how large layouts have trains of, say, a hundred gondola wagons or twenty main-line coaches.

Funicular_20210515_122435.JPG (35.88 KiB) Viewed 1511 times

As I (six years old!) extracted the bogies from the thin plastic, I BROKE ONE OF THEM! It didn’t even get as far as a length of Peco track. A little bit fell out, bounced off my work pants and tumbled to the grey industrial carpet floor. Gone!
Then I found that the hook part of the coupling drops in and, obviously, out.
Why is this? These are quality bogies. I can BLOW them along the track.
Why is the hook so easy to remove/replace. Is there a better hook?

I note that these bogie hooks are not compatible with the ore-wagon hooks. Incompatibility is not an issue for me here, because whether I use the RTR wagons, or my custom wagons, neither set will meet as a rake of wagons on a mainline. They are destined to operate only on my two-track funicular.

Cheers
Chris