Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Post your design ideas for any layout that you are planning to build in the future. Keep members up-to-date with your designs and future plans for your layout.
b308
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby b308 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:57 am

mumbles wrote:Interesting stuff Mountain, is that linked to an urban legend/myth I think I've heard that steam trains were stored in the event of a nuclear war, where diesel and electric would be affected but coal still available? Or have i imagines that tale?


It's one of those urban myths put about by steam enthusiasts who couldn't cope with the end of steam in '68! If you think it through logically it just wouldn't work, coal was in the decline and, more importantly, there wouldn't be enough people around who knew how to drive and maintain them to run any sort of meaningful service!

Back to NG that Liliput loco, though HO scale and based on a Swiss 750mm prototype can be Anglicised quite effectively. if you are modelling industrial NG then it's worth bearing in mind that many companies used German and Austrian locos as well as British ones, whatever came cheapest usually... Such as War Surplus. Look at Minitrains, and also the forthcoming offerings from Bachmann UK due in the new year...

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Mountain
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Mountain » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:39 pm

I personally connected the two events together regarding the relaying of the track only to be taken up again. It was old PW staff who had told me about the four miles of track that had been relayed and then taken up again soon after. It puzzled me that if a large load needed to be taken to Neyland, why not bring it in by ship as Neyland had a dock which once was the connection between Wales and Ireland. (Neyland used to be called New Milford in the early days of the GWR and the previous South Wales Railway who had originally built the main line through South Wales).

Regarding locos from abroad coming to be used in the UK, it is surprising how many Baldwins came to be purchased cheap and converted for use on a few lines in Wales (And elsewhere) after they had been used in WW1. Baldwins were not liked by the train crew so they were often the first locos to be scrapped rather then rebuilt when major investment in repairs was needed later in their lives. I may imagine it also had to do with parts availability?
Also many railways (Especially narrow gauge) that were built during the late 1800's to early 1900's found themselves on a very long waiting list to have locomotives built due to the sheer demand for UK locomotives at that time with orders made right round the world. Talybont and Hafan Railway found themselves buying a loco that was a cancelled order where the loco was designed for use in Rhodesia. This was the T&H second loco as the first was of unconventional resin and found to have issues. Many narrow gauge railways had to order locos from abroad, Germany and USA being the main other world manufacturers at that time.
This provides some genuine excuses to have USA and German prototypes on ones UK based narrow gauge layout.

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Emettman
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Emettman » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:10 pm

mumbles wrote:Emmetman, as much as a coffee table layout would be a lot of fun to make I think its maybe just straying into fantasy rather than a realistic build.


You started it
,"...fit on coffee table size, portable and storable.. An actual coffee table layout has crossed my mind too!!"
So it's utterly your call.

Main advantage of an actual coffee-table layout is space-saving, if it actually replace s a coffee-table.

How about a 15 ft by 5 inches layout for a passage-way? Three 3ft scenes: quarry, halfway loop, docks.
(not my idea that one: from an old narrow-gauge modelling book)

One other OO9 layout I actually built was for an underbed drawer and was a variant on the "rabbit" idea, with several passing loops.

Chris
"It's his madness that keeps him sane."

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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby mumbles » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:23 pm

I did it's true :lol: I suppose that's one of the aims of the thread, to refine ideas and buying a coffee table to make it is a good idea I hadn't really thought of so thank you 8)

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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby b308 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:47 pm

Mountain, I think there may have been more Baldwins in England than Wales, the Welsh NG lines already had plenty of engines but the more impoverished English ones didn't! (Don't quote me on that though!) :)

The War Department locos were built down to a price and weren't meant to last long hence the rough riding and other shortcomings, in fact it's a miracle so many did actually survive...

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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby mumbles » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:36 pm

I can see I have some knowledgeable allies here to help with loco's and things like that! As I've said elsewhere, my train knowledge is not great! While not being totally fussed about whether this loco is Uk or European outline as I like it as is, I certainly would like some other traction, whether diesel or steam. I often look at 009 kits on ebay and consider getting one!

Something else I think you could help with is which track to go for, I think I used the 'crazy track' before? Which I think I've read is not really that well regarded?

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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby mumbles » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:48 pm

One of the other vids of the layout after sprucing for sale

https://youtu.be/jzEDwGtlcmw

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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby PinkNosedPenguin » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:53 pm

mumbles wrote:One of the other vids of the layout after sprucing for sale

I love the caption :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Emettman
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Emettman » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:58 pm

mumbles wrote:Something else I think you could help with is which track to go for, I think I used the 'crazy track' before? Which I think I've read is not really that well regarded?



The Peco crazy track, in its time, was a big improvement for many over having to use N gauge track with N scale sleepers, unless one went into custom track building. Points to match but only, I think, dead-frog.
They now do a 9" radius setrack curve with OO9 sleepers which could be handy if you need to go that sharp (mainly out of sight?) St-403, St 412.

On locos, there are variety of options, which expand further if modelling the line as a tramway, which allows the hiding of (absent) loco motion rods.
The Kato 4 and 8 wheel power units are very nice.
If a train was only required to run and stop (not shunt) then putting an 8-wheel power unit in the first coach,"ghosting", could be very effective in allowing a tiny "loco"

3D-printed loco bodies are available to suit these.
https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace?type=product&q=oo9


A 009 3D printed body, but with a battery chassis, on a 2" radius curve.

001.JPG


Kato do a "ghost powered" set in N, with an unpowered loco.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KATO-10-500-Chibi-Loco-Set-Steam-Locomotive-of-Fairyland-3-Car-Set-Model-Train/282379722485?hash=item41bf249ef5:g:nV0AAOSwXLpZ2Gyn
I don't need another, but I'm tempted, at that price.

Chris.
"It's his madness that keeps him sane."

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Mountain
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Mountain » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:12 pm

mumbles wrote:I can see I have some knowledgeable allies here to help with loco's and things like that! As I've said elsewhere, my train knowledge is not great! While not being totally fussed about whether this loco is Uk or European outline as I like it as is, I certainly would like some other traction, whether diesel or steam. I often look at 009 kits on ebay and consider getting one!

Something else I think you could help with is which track to go for, I think I used the 'crazy track' before? Which I think I've read is not really that well regarded?

I didnt personally have any issues with Peco crazy track in 009, but I didnt get to build a layout with it. I was just enjoying "Playing" with what I had. It was going to go with my 00 gauge plans.
I found 0-16.5 to have more potential for my scratchbuilding and budget requirements, so I'm having fun with that instead.
009 is lovely stuff and will fit in a small size so is ideal for the coffee table idea, though I'd be tempted to take a siding to the edge of the table for future expansion possibilities. (I've decided this is a good plan with any small layout).

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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby b308 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:44 am

Crazy Track is just fine for the sort of OO9 layout you will be building, Mumbles. As Chris mentioned Peco also do some set track in OO9 which is based on the crazy track and has decent 9" curves. The only issue is that the points are dead frog, but if you take care with laying then you should be OK...

The "Mainline" Peco track is aimed at people like me and the Continental Market, it is based on modern 750/760mm gauge practice for those of us who model in HOe and is VERY good!!

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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby mumbles » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:44 am

b308 wrote:Crazy Track is just fine for the sort of OO9 layout you will be building, Mumbles. As Chris mentioned Peco also do some set track in OO9 which is based on the crazy track and has decent 9" curves. The only issue is that the points are dead frog, but if you take care with laying then you should be OK...

The "Mainline" Peco track is aimed at people like me and the Continental Market, it is based on modern 750/760mm gauge practice for those of us who model in HOe and is VERY good!!

Thanks!! Just what I needed to know! I got on fine with the crazy track before but wasn't sure that the ma online stuff would suit a more ramshackle type layout!

I take it 9" is the smallest limit for curves with the flexi? I don't want to be worrying about live frog anyway as I didn't have any probs with points before.

I've seem those 3D printed loco kits and wondered if they were worth getting? Seems a cheap option

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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Mountain » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:18 am

mumbles wrote:
b308 wrote:Crazy Track is just fine for the sort of OO9 layout you will be building, Mumbles. As Chris mentioned Peco also do some set track in OO9 which is based on the crazy track and has decent 9" curves. The only issue is that the points are dead frog, but if you take care with laying then you should be OK...

The "Mainline" Peco track is aimed at people like me and the Continental Market, it is based on modern 750/760mm gauge practice for those of us who model in HOe and is VERY good!!

Thanks!! Just what I needed to know! I got on fine with the crazy track before but wasn't sure that the ma online stuff would suit a more ramshackle type layout!

I take it 9" is the smallest limit for curves with the flexi? I don't want to be worrying about live frog anyway as I didn't have any probs with points before.

I've seem those 3D printed loco kits and wondered if they were worth getting? Seems a cheap option


From what I've seen the 3D kit prices are expensive. (Typically double the price of a cast resin kit). Having said that, the results are nice. Also dont forget the Peco loco kits, though they have missing cylinders on the chassis they were designed for, but the tram loco should be fine. No idea how much they cost these days.
A friend of mine goes on eBay and has found some 3D printed kits at a more reasonable price.
I think you will find the limit to minimum radius flexible track curves are what you want to run on them rather then what they will flex to. True, if one takes it too far the sleepers start to go at odd angles and take it further still and the gauge width reduces due to these angles. I have seen an exhibition layout in 0-16.5 where the curves were 18" diameter and I think he used 00 track rather then 0-16.5 (Only the sleepers are different) to save costs.
The mainline track has not been out that long and I've not seen it myself. The crazy track was designed to look more like a prototype where the railway had aa tight budget so shortcuts were made. For example, the sleeper ends were not always cut at 90° angles and the track had been neglected, where any future rail repairs over the years would have had sleepers positioned at differing angles.... As long as it did the job.
The mainline track is designed to look like the wealthier prototypes who could afford precision. More like how the standard gauge lines look. Every sleeper had been positioned and cut just so, and the railway would likely to have fresh ballast with very little out of place.
A good comparison is to look at the track on the Tal-Y-Llyn Railway as it was when it was first taken over by preservationists after years of neglect by running on very little funds, and how it is run now where professionalism is the order of the day. Two totally different worlds yet using thew same basic equipment... Just the former had very little funds to invest and the latter has ploughed investment into the whole railway system over many years and it has paid off.

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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby b308 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:20 pm

TBH crazy track always has been a bit too crazy, even in real life the sleepers never really looked that bad, but for industrial and unkempt track it works OK... If you were modelling the Tallylyn in the late '40 and early '50s then it would be more realistic not using sleepers at all it was so bad!! Mainline track, as I mentioned earlier was issued by Peco to counter lost sales due to some really good HOe track from Tillig (in particular) and Roco, it is based on Modern Practice for 750/750mm track and is to scale to represent such track where the rail is over 6" deep. The market for HOe is massive in Europe compared with OO9 in the UK but it is growing since the introduction of British RTR...

You can easily go down to 6" with crazy track, but like all such discussions I always say that you are best using the widest radius your space will permit. The Minitrains/Egger locos will go round 6" just fine but bear in mind you may have coupling problems with a tight radius, best stick to 9" which is below what you'd see in Real Life anyhow!!

With regard to 3D prints, many OO9 ones are made to use the Kato 4 wheel tram chassis which is an excellent runner, cheap (below £20) and easy to get hold of. You're best going to Shapeways and doing a search on there, it's often cheaper than Ebay. I know Tom Bell who does TeBee models and his stuff is good but there are lots of others...

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/tebee?li=pb

https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace/m ... duct&q=009

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Emettman
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Emettman » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:19 pm

mumbles wrote:
I take it 9" is the smallest limit for curves with the flexi? I don't want to be worrying about live frog anyway as I didn't have any probs with points before.


If going down to 9" radius I would definitely used re-curved track for precision.
**depending on stock and couplings** 9" is not the limit.
Tomix do a range of 9mm gauge tracks down to 4.5" radius, including a range of embedded tracks idea for dock or street sections

10" OO curves
6" roadway N or OO9 curves.
N train is a Bandai "B Shorty" (another way of doing relatively cheap small-space trains)

DSC00950.JPG


Peco do do live frogs on their "mainline" version of OO9, but their more compact
( PECO SL-E497 Code 80 Medium Radius 'Y' Point ') might be the best option in a smaller space.

I've seem those 3D printed loco kits and wondered if they were worth getting? Seems a cheap option


Mine, now over 2 years old needed some scraping/polishing to get surfaces properly smooth, but quality appears to be changing rapidly.
While there are expensive and highly detailed kits, some of the bodies seem remarkably inexpensive, at least to me.
Especially some of the OO9 railcars?

Chris
"It's his madness that keeps him sane."


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