Kavster's Loft Layout

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Kavster
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:56 pm

Haha, yes I tried to change it as quickly as possible before anyone noticed! :lol:

And yes, I see your point (no pun intended!). I will indeed swap them round.
And although the second direction is not actually required, I think I'll end up keeping both directions though so that trains can change to the outside track soon after leaving the station, rather than having to wait until they reach the other side of the layout. Maybe I'm creating more unnessecary work for myself, but I just like the idea of being able to change the tracks at both sides of the station.

And yes, well noted about the upright supports. I do have a bit of room, so I will bear this in mind when laying the track. And the point motors will have plenty of room, but again I will be careful with position once I'm building it.

Thank you again for your input, it really is appreciated!

Here's the adjusted plan...

Image

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End2end
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby End2end » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:01 pm

Kavster wrote:Thank you again for your input, it really is appreciated!

It's been my pleasure to help. :D

Now get round here and build my layout legs for me. I'm cr*p at woodwork. :lol:
Thanks
End2end
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Kavster
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:10 pm

End2end wrote:Now get round here and build my layout legs for me. I'm cr*p at woodwork. :lol:


Haha! As it goes, I’m hopefully building my baseboard legs tomorrow! So, maybe hold judgment until you’ve seen my woodwork skills first! Haha :lol:

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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby mumbles » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:32 pm

looks spot on

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roganty
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby roganty » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:22 am

Hi Kavster,

I've been following your thread's with interest and envy, as I wish I had the space (and the inclination) to build a large layout (I am always dreaming lol!)

There's just a couple of points I've noticed with your plan that I'm not sure about, either because it's by design, prototypical, or something else.
tbh, with all the talk of moving this that and the other over here there and the other I sort of glazed over. I would need a stiff drink, a pen and paper, and a few days to work it all out.

So I might have missed something...

Kavster wrote:Here's the adjusted plan...

Image


I my mind any train going clockwise on the outside mainline through the station would have no direct access to the TMD area
(Just thought of this... If there was a passenger train in the station the points would need to be outside the station otherwise the freight train would have to wait for the passenger train to depart)

Also any trains exiting the Docks area in a clockwise direction would have to use the same set of points as the fiddleyard to get to the correct running line.
(I wish we could quote forum attachments...) In E2E's image in this post (the set of points circled) I would have kept it this way around, but moved up into the position you have it in now.

I would also have a similar arrangement on the other side for trains running clockwise on the outside line, so they could cross and go immediately into the docks area.


But, it all depends on how you treat the scenery, and I'm sure some more-experienced people will pipe up and correct me

Anthony

Ps, I would have grabbed your image and drawn lines all over it, I can see your image on the forum, but when I open the image I get a "page isn't working" error :shrug:
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby End2end » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:41 pm

Just a couple of points...on those points. :lol:
roganty wrote:In my mind any train going clockwise on the outside mainline through the station would have no direct access to the TMD area
(Just thought of this... If there was a passenger train in the station the points would need to be outside the station otherwise the freight train would have to wait for the passenger train to depart)


Yes ...and..erm..... well no. :lol:
If a freight train is inbound after a passenger train, the passenger train can use the upper platform and still be going in the same clockwise direction freeing up the other track for the freight train to go into the freight area. This longer platform also allows longer passenger trains.
I would say that here it becomes modellors license as, would you prototypically have a train coming in with the platform on the right usually?
I'm sure there must be in some real life situations?

roganty wrote:Also any trains exiting the Docks area in a clockwise direction would have to use the same set of points as the fiddleyard to get to the correct running line.:

Yes, although this is a cost saving rather than a design decision. For maximum effieciency I would turn both sets of the points to the same way as I edited at 1 \
But keep the both set of points above the green docks point.

roganty wrote:I would also have a similar arrangement on the other side for trains running clockwise on the outside line, so they could cross and go immediately into the docks area.:

Personally I would move those upper right hand points down to do exactly that although as mentioned earlier a passing loop beyond the station was designed as required by Kavster.

roganty wrote:Ps, I would have grabbed your image and drawn lines all over it, I can see your image on the forum, but when I open the image I get a "page isn't working" error :shrug:

Right click - select View Image - select Save Image As. :)

Thanks
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby roganty » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:22 am

End2end wrote:Just a couple of points...on these points. :lol:


Sorry E2E, couldn't help myself :D

End2end wrote:
roganty wrote:In my mind any train going clockwise on the outside mainline through the station would have no direct access to the TMD area
(Just thought of this... If there was a passenger train in the station the points would need to be outside the station otherwise the freight train would have to wait for the passenger train to depart)


Yes ...and..erm..... well no. :lol:
If a freight train is inbound after a passenger train, the passenger train can use the upper platform and still be going in the same clockwise direction freeing up the other track for the freight train to go into the freight area. This longer platform also allows longer passenger trains.
I would say that here it becomes modellors license as, would you prototypically have a train coming in with the platform on the right usually?
I'm sure there must be in some real life situations?


A picture says a thousands words. This is what I was trying to say
station2tmd.jpg


End2end wrote:
roganty wrote:Also any trains exiting the Docks area in a clockwise direction would have to use the same set of points as the fiddleyard to get to the correct running line.:

Yes, although this is a cost saving rather than a design decision. For maximum effieciency I would turn both sets of the points to the same way as I edited at 1 \
But keep the both set of points above the green docks point.

roganty wrote:I would also have a similar arrangement on the other side for trains running clockwise on the outside line, so they could cross and go immediately into the docks area.:

Personally I would move those upper right hand points down to do exactly that although as mentioned earlier a passing loop beyond the station was designed as required by Kavster.


For the first point what you said is what I was trying to say. Here is another thousand words:
docks2main.jpg
docks2main.jpg (30.31 KiB) Viewed 790 times


End2end wrote:
roganty wrote:Ps, I would have grabbed your image and drawn lines all over it, I can see your image on the forum, but when I open the image I get a "page isn't working" error :shrug:

Right click - select View Image - select Save Image As. :)

I can access the image now, so I used the full size image (Opened the image in a new tab. Zoomed in/out to a suitable size and grabbed a screenshot [region])

Anthony

Edit: I was rereading this and this jumped out at me
End2end wrote:I would say that here it becomes modellors license as, would you prototypically have a train coming in with the platform on the right usually?
I'm sure there must be in some real life situations?

I'm not sure about on the main line, but on branch lines defiantly. The one near me (The Severn Beach Line) is single track, and many of the stations only have one platform.
Last edited by roganty on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby End2end » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:46 am

Ahh yes I see now and agree on both............. points. :lol:
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Last edited by End2end on Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:32 am

Hello Roganty,

Firstly thank you for your thoughts and input!
Secondly, apologies it's taken so long to reply but I was in the loft all day yesterday making progress!

I've had a look through your thoughts and I'll break it down (and by that I mean the points, not my dancing...)

1) The station points into the TMD area.
I do see what you're saying, and my original thinking was that the loco could change tracks, but earlier near the dock area. However, that beign said I did think about it and agree that it would be better to have the points there and so I have added some in. But, I've added them along the platform due to what End2end stated about passenger locos taking the top track. It just made more sense to me to place them there I think.

Image

2) The points either side...
For me, although I do fully understand your point on the points. I'd just like to point out, that End2end's point is pointing in the right direction when he mentions cost savings. I hope you can see the point? I know it's not typical, but I feel that at this point, to add another set of points that are doing the same thing as a set of points about 2ft ahead of them would be pointless. However, another point is that this area is likly to be left unscenics for at least the beginning, and so I can always add another set of points in if I discover that your points about these points was pointing in the right direction all along!
And on the other side, the point is that I've left the points closer to the station so that the points can allow access to the passing loop platform. Again, I refer your to my point about these points above where I mention that I can add additional points in at a later date quite easily if these points start pointing to your point about the points.
...just a couple of quick points :lol:

But in all seriousness, I am gratful for your thoughts on this!

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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby TimberSurf » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:10 am

I could make several suggestions, but I am still concerned your design is based in first radius curves!. This issue needs resolving first, before making final tweaks. The paper design needs to work first, or else when you come to design while laying, you will run out of room and spend much time trying to redesign on the fly. We cant help you then. There is now no room for a dropped section! Are you still interested in the split level idea?
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:08 am

Hi Timbersurf,

I'm always welcoming ideas and suggestions.
Let me address your concern about the corners. Yes, I understand they are 1st radius curves on the plan, but I have just used them as placeholders, as in reality I will be using flexi track with tracksettas. I understand that it will push things back, but I have just quckly overlaid some 2nd radius curves onto the plan, and all i'd have to do for one corner is push some points back.
I assure you I wont be using 1st radius SeTrack.

When I get time, I will go in and adjust the design fully with 2nd radius curves at a minimum, and even 3rd radius to push it.

Image

A dropped section was always a concern for me tbh. I have designed my baseboards to be solid flat boards, and I wanted to keep the design abd build of them quick and simple. It may be something I add in when I inevitably change the layout over the years. But right now, I probably wont add a dropped section I think...

And the split level idea you mentioned before did seem intriguing, I admit. But I was unclear on how you meant to impliment it into my plan.
If you are able to explain it, I would consider it.
I did read the thread you linked too, and understood the concept, but wan't clear on how to translate it to my layout, that's all.

And with this being my first build, I'm probably being too adventerous as it is, but in for penny in for a pound as they say! :lol:

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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby roganty » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:28 am

Kavster wrote:Firstly thank you for your thoughts and input!
Secondly, apologies it's taken so long to reply but I was in the loft all day yesterday making progress!


Progress is good!

Kavster wrote:2) The points either side...
For me, although I do fully understand your point on the points. I'd just like to point out, that End2end's point is pointing in the right direction when he mentions cost savings. I hope you can see the point? I know it's not typical, but I feel that at this point, to add another set of points that are doing the same thing as a set of points about 2ft ahead of them would be pointless. However, another point is that this area is likely to be left unscenic for at least the beginning, and so I can always add another set of points in if I discover that your points about these points was pointing in the right direction all along!
And on the other side, the point is that I've left the points closer to the station so that the points can allow access to the passing loop platform. Again, I refer your to my point about these points above where I mention that I can add additional points in at a later date quite easily if these points start pointing to your point about the points.
...just a couple of quick points :lol:


On this point I do agree with E2E's point on cost saving, and also on aesthetics. If the fiddleyard and dock roads were much further apart, then my point about the points would point in the right direction.
And on the other side, I understand about the passing loop for the platform. As there is a greater distance between the passing loop and the docks I would have added a second set of points where I pointed out.

Of course, this would all be pointless if you could only just find an SL-E80 (Or if Peco actually made one!)

But, as TimerSurf has pointed out, when you do finally start to lay track you may run out of room and not be able to have the points in the places that you have pointed out

Kavster wrote:But in all seriousness, I am grateful for your thoughts on this!

Your welcome

Anthony
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby TimberSurf » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:43 pm

Kavster wrote:Hi Timbersurf,

And the split level idea you mentioned before did seem intriguing, I admit. But I was unclear on how you meant to impliment it into my plan.
If you are able to explain it, I would consider it.
I did read the thread you linked too, and understood the concept, but wan't clear on how to translate it to my layout, that's all.


OK, the issue is time! I don't have much! Else I would draw up your layout myself and be better able to demonstrate! :lol:
Lets see if I can convey the idea in as few words as possible.....
Top station board stays the same, consider it as the middle level of 3. (upper, middle and lower)
Bottom (docks) board effectively stays the same, but the mainline tracks would be raised 4" {upper level} (on a plank) fronted by embankment/retaining wall and the docks would stay on the board as is {lower Level}. This board would be fixed 2" lower than the Middle level (station) board.
Now comes the hard part. Both side boards would be made of two 6 inch wide boards. On each side, attached to same level as station board (middle level). At the bottom (dock) end, the outer 6" board would incline 2", from the station board to meet the plank (upper level), the inner 6" board would decline 2" to the bottom (lower level) docks.
Both feeds to the green would have to start near to the top board. (with extended green track)
Effectively, you have created an incline of 4" over 14 feet! This works well when you want to get railway lines to pass under each other. In your present design, that is not an issue, but this would give you, more options to have bridges/multiple levels/road tunnel/bridge/load transfer by gravity (hopper loading)/rail over rail/tunnels and generally be a less boring than a 'flat' layout. Admittedly a lot more faff, especially for a beginner, depends on your woodworking skills and determination! :?
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:04 am

roganty wrote:But, as TimerSurf has pointed out, when you do finally start to lay track you may run out of room and not be able to have the points in the places that you have pointed out


Yes, that's true. I think it's going to be a bit of trial and error when I come to laying the track. But, like I said, I can always add mroe points in later on that part of track. So, will have to see how it goes!

TimberSurf wrote:this would give you, more options to have bridges/multiple levels/road tunnel/bridge/load transfer by gravity (hopper loading)/rail over rail/tunnels and generally be a less boring than a 'flat' layout. Admittedly a lot more faff, especially for a beginner, depends on your woodworking skills and determination! :?


Thank you for explainging that in a bit more detail. I do actually fully under stand what you mean now. I admit, I do love the idea and sound of it, especially for the reason you've mentioned (above). However, I'm not sure I can actually impliment this for a few reasons.
1) The lower level (docks). They have to be at a minimum height of 2ft 6 inches. This is for clearance of the water tank and pipework.
2) This would mean that the main station area would be at 2ft 8 inches, and the upper mainline tracks at 2ft 10 inches. However, on the side boards (the 1ft ones), there is a support beam at a height of 2ft 10 inches which means that trains wouldnt have clearance to pass through. So, for the reason in point one, I can't bring everything down a few inches. :cry:

I will experiment with gradients, and see if it's possible to have anyway of an incline in some area, as I do like the possibilities it brings!

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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby mumbles » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:30 am

Id be tempted to keep all your track on the flat to start with. Laying track can be tricky on the flat as it is!

One thing I thought about your base board frames and how well you've been able to build them. Is there some area you could make one a little shallower, or drop it just by a few inches just to get some height variation for a scenic section? Doesn't look out of your capability but I guess it's a space thing?


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