GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Have any questions or tips and advice on how to build those bits that don't come ready made.
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Lysander
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GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby Lysander » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:27 pm

Look for GWR 4 wheel coaches and what do you find ? The ubiquitous Ratio kits and the rather toy-like Hornby offerings. There's certainly nothing wrong with the Ratio kits [apart from a lot of moulding flash - they're showing their age now] and there are plenty who like the Hornby shorties too, but not me.

I've been looking for these alternatives for a while: I've bid on many but until the other day have always been out bid. I picked up two quite cheaply however, still shrink-wrapped, and they will be the next kit build. The castings are very clean for Keyser models, so they are probably quite early releases. They are also very simple, just sides, wheels and a roof, with some buffers. Easy enough to make, although a great deal of manipulation has been necessary so far to ensure that the large castings are completely flat along all planes: both roofs were twisted along two planes. With care, and some filler, they make up into interesting and quite different coaches. Ideal for a quiet branch.

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Keyser castings are not light however. each coach weighs in at just under 8ozs and that's without a floor, glazing and interior fittings. It is essential that they are constructed to be as free running as possible. The two alone will weigh over a pound and as I plan to acquire a Keyser 6 wheel Tri-Compo and their bogie full brake also, something with some grunt is going to be required to pull them.

No panic I I acquired this at the same time, complete with motor and chassis, for an astonishing £20. It weighs an absolute hundredweight......

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I'll update in due course.

Tony
Men with false teeth may yet speak the truth.......

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End2end
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby End2end » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:14 pm

Lysander wrote:Look for GWR 4 wheel coaches and what do you find ? The ubiquitous Ratio kits and the rather toy-like Hornby offerings. There's certainly nothing wrong with the Ratio kits [apart from a lot of moulding flash - they're showing their age now] and there are plenty who like the Hornby shorties too, but not me.Tony

I have to echo your post Lysander. I have an old Ratio catalogue that showed 3 rtr gwr short coaches (cannot find it at the moment) which were even unavailable whilst the catalogue was active yet still showed them.
I too have to have shorter coaches on my layout due to size so have been slowly purchasing some of the hornby short gwr coaches (3 at time of writing), alhtough the new railroad ones are absolutly AWFUL! with eveything just painted on.
I think (if i'm correct) and once I have found the catalogue, I will contact Ratio/Wills to ask them to consider re-releasing the 3 rtr coaches as so many modellers seem to want to model the GWR. Financially it seems a no-brainer.
Thanks
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Lysander
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby Lysander » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:44 pm

Hi End2End

I didn't quite understand your point. Were you suggesting that Ratio once sold their three GWR 4-wheeler kits as ready-to-run ? I may well have misunderstood you [it happens - quite often these days !].

If you have a catalogue that suggests this is the case it certainly never followed on. Ratio would construct their kits at a price [they told me when I phoned them once - maybe 30 years ago] but I'd put good money on them never issuing r-t-r stock. If you can find your catalogue, could you scan the page for interest ? Thanks.

The kits are still available at Third, Compo and Third Brake. Their age is showing however in the amount of flash in the mouldings, the moulds having worn quite a lot. They are still nice models though and quite easy to make up.

Tony
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End2end
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby End2end » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:59 pm

Ahh found it. I forgot that I put the catalgoue in a folder. The actual picture in the catalgoue states "TEMPORARILY DISCONTINUED"
OK the catalogue numbers for the coaches are :
610 (5x 3rd compartments)
612 (2 x 1st & 2 x 3rd composite)
613 (2 x 3rd comps with brake comp)
Taken from the catalgoue...
"These coaches were constructed between 1890 and 1902, and were used in the more rural parts of the system. They are ideal for sleepy branchline termini so often modelled. By the late 1930's they were strictly 'backwater' vehicles, used for mundane tasks like workman's train in South Wales, often with the 1st class sections downgraded to 3rd. This practice continued until the early 1950's, whilst others became 'camping coaches' in the 1930's or were grounded (kit501).
Shire scenes make sides that allow alternative versaion to be made"

I cannot find anywhere on the page that states that these are actually kits. :?:
Also the catalogue has a date inside the front cover stating "Third edition June 2004"
Thanks
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Lysander
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby Lysander » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:09 pm

Yesp - them's those. They've always been kits.

They are still available too - search eBay, or Google 'ratio coach' for retailers [eg Hattons].

You'll find eBay a lot cheaper if you are prepared to search and wait. I bought two the other day for £8 including postage.

Here's a link to four that I run with a K's 6 wheel Siphon: https://srmg.squarespace.com/st-davids-wells-info/

They are in the smaller pictures, middle of the page, top row, fourth in from the left. Click on it and it should enlarge.

Tony
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flying scotsman123
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby flying scotsman123 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:15 pm

This looks like a great projct, considering what you did with the condensed steam tank I'm really looking forward to seeing how these turn out as well. :)
"listen carefully, i shall say this only once"

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End2end
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby End2end » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:37 pm

They look absolutly great :D
Unfortunatly my modelling / painting skills would not do them any justice so I am stuck with the Hornby 4-wheelers ....... for now.
Thanks
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bike2steam
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby bike2steam » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:09 pm

Lysander wrote:No panic I I acquired this at the same time, complete with motor and chassis, for an astonishing £20. It weighs an absolute hundredweight......

Image

I'll update in due course.

Tony


I shouldn't get too excited, the K's mark 1 motor is one of the worst things to happen to model railways, and the old K's chassis frames are so crude by todays standards, the body is ok if you're prepared to do a lot of fettling, and improvements - the weight is great for adhesion. Good luck. It makes the Bachmann newer version of the 57xx seem like absolute perfection.

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Lysander
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby Lysander » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:49 pm

I'll get it going.........

The motor is quite clean and a five pole one, so it should have a little power. I'd like to source some brushes however. The worst motors were the Mk3 with their plastic gear cradle. If this one is absolutely u/s then some sort of replacement will be sorted.

Come on. It'll be fun !

Tony
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bike2steam
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby bike2steam » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:05 am

Good on yer for having a go, as I said - good luck. :) Post some pics of the finished article .

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Lysander
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby Lysander » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:53 pm

This isn't going to be terribly exciting but it's time for an update.

Work has started one of the Third Class 4 wheelers. Usual stuff, clean up the castings, manipulate them into as straight and square a state as possible [an engineer's steel rule was invaluable here], file away some moulding bulges, etc.

Using a sheet of glass and some Squares to ensure the straightest fit possible, I decided to initially tack the ends and bodies together with small drops of superglue to test the fit. That showed what I had suspected: bows, irregular castings and gaps, but none I felt which could not later be managed by filler and gentle bending. It also demonstrated that in this case, sheet glass and Squares were completely redundant and a better job would be done by eye.

However, of greater concern were the axle holes. The wheels supplied had axles which were far too long to fit, even if the boxes were splayed ludicrously. The wheels that I intended to fit had shorter axles but they were still too long. The only solution would be careful drilling and filing: drilling out the axle boxes as far as I dared [I went clean through oner] and filing down the ends of the brass bearings as far as they could go. Eventually I managed to sink the bearings right into the castings and the new wheel sets at least spin. A little tuning and they spun really freely but - horrors - I could not get more than three [and sometimes almost three !] to sit on the rails at a time. It took two hours to get each axle level but even then, one axle was higher than the other, so the body dropped towards one end.

There was only one solution: because opening up oval holes at one end would be too irreversibly hit-and-miss, I simply put a bigger wheel set at the higher end to even things up. An appalling cheat and it will irritate me for ever, but it works. And it's not that noticeable on the track either.

Photo shows the body in primer. And the floor fitted. Far from being cosmetic, the floor has great structural importance, it's just about the only thing that holds the body together. That, and about half a tube of Araldite.......

What I now know is that different solutions will have to be found for each one of these that I build: they are nowhere near the standards of modern injection-moulding. It'll be two, and no more........

The dips in the running boards are really evident here, but they lend a well-used, vintage look I feel.
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The floor is made of thick foam-board. It is light but very strong and provides an excellent and necessary support for the castings
Image
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The next two photos show that whilst the wheelsets have a different profile, the size differential is not too apparent
Image
Image

Tony
Men with false teeth may yet speak the truth.......

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Lysander
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby Lysander » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:19 pm

Quick update............

Filler applied to joints at each end to close up gaps. Tie rods [brass wire] attached to each axle box bottom and dummy brake vacuum gear [from the bits box] fitted in between solebars. This little bit of detail improves the lower outline considerably.

Image

Vacuum pipes constructed for coach ends and emergency brake rodding applied to one end. I'm not at all sure that these coaches were so equipped [rodding] as I have not been able to find any convincing photographs to confirm this. The rodding adds detail to a rather stark end however and looks good for that.

Image

Tomorrow - another coat of primer, before laying down the first coat of brown.

Oh, wheels also changed - one axle still a little larger than the other [of necessity] but the profiles are now similar. It was really beginning to annoy me ! The coach runs very freely and smoothly.

Tony
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Lysander
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby Lysander » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:04 pm

I realised that I'd done nothing with these two K's kits since mid-March. I've done quite a lot of other things but, for some reason, these got neglected. Oh well. Here's an update..........

Lettered and tidied up this afternoon, No 16 now awaits a spray of varnish before glazing, compartment partitions and couplings are fitted. The roof can then be attached. I'm not sure yet which adhesive to use for the roof, probably Evostick two-part as Superglue will risk damaging the paintwork.

These old K's kits have real charm and make such a change from the inevitable succession of Ratio models when people mention 4-wheelers. Nothing wrong with Ratio's offerings at all mind you, it's just nice to be able to ring the changes though. I've one more to finish before I make a start on a K's 6-wheel Tri-Compo. I'll find something else to do in the middle no doubt however.......

Image

I'll do some out-door photos of No 16 when it's completed.

Tony
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Lysander
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby Lysander » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:51 pm

FINISHED

Glazed and with couplings attached, and well worth the effort. One more to do.

Image

Image

Tony
Men with false teeth may yet speak the truth.......

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alex3410
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Re: GWR vintage 4-wheelers

Postby alex3410 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:27 pm

brilliant finish, it looks fantastic well done :D


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