Stuck with shorts..

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briantwigley
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Stuck with shorts..

Postby briantwigley » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:04 pm

Hey all.

Been trying to wire up a new small layout and as usual I've mucked it up somewhere. I am using N Gauge code 55 electrofrog points. I first laid all the track, didn't use any IRJs and had to pull up the points. I managed to run some trains until I found one point when switched caused a short. I fitted an IRJ where I think I forgot one and now it works, but another point does the same. I have highlighted this in the image.

I wired up the bus and it all worked apart from that point, except where I had dead areas. I installed some more droppers and connected, and found that even though I'd stuck to the colour coding for the bus, the controller reset showing a short. so I removed the new droppers one by one and found the culprit, and for some reason when I reversed the colours it didn't short.

If possible, can someone help me out with what should be wired where, so I don't burn myself with the soldering Iron any more?

This is how it looks, with the green dots being where IRJs are.

Image

This is the plain diagram in case anyone would like to draw what should be where for me and I'll be so grateful? :wink:

Image

Thanks in advance,

Ryan

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Flashbang
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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby Flashbang » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:57 pm

Hi
I am assuming this is a DCC layout?

The below will be correct as the minimum requirements...

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z311/Flash_bang/Plan_zps439bb448.png
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Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

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briantwigley
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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby briantwigley » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:15 pm

Hi Flashbang

Yes it is DCC. Thank you so much for that diagram, it's exactly what I was after!

One thing I have never been able to get the hang of is wiring a layout!

Thanks again,

Ryan

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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby RFS » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:01 pm

Flashbang wrote:Hi
I am assuming this is a DCC layout?

The below will be correct as the minimum requirements...

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z311/Flash_bang/Plan_zps439bb448.png


Comment removed as brain not switched on at the time!
Last edited by RFS on Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Robert Smith

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briantwigley
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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby briantwigley » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:09 pm

They are electrofrog points

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Flashbang
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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby Flashbang » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:08 pm

RFS wrote:You don't need 4 IRJs on the two crossovers - just IRJs on each of the two frog rails. The straight rails only need standard metal joiners.


If you fully read the text in the drawing it clearly states "The two cross-over points have four IRJs per pair of points. Two in the actual cross-over rails and one in each straight Vee rail end". Which is 100% correct - two per point end fitted onto all the post Frog Vee rail ends!

Failure to fit all these IRJs will with feeds after the point result in short circuits occurring. Not fitting all the feeds shown would result in dead track sections when a point is set against that direction. This is not the idea of DCC where all rails are live all the time!
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Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby m8internet » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:14 pm

When you have back to back points, it is necessary to have IRJ on the output of the point as well
Looks to me as if there are many IRJ missing, and equally, some power droppers are unnecessary
Glasgow Queen Street Model Railway layout : modern image N gauge using DCC

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Flashbang
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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby Flashbang » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:46 pm

m8internet wrote:When you have back to back points, it is necessary to have IRJ on the output of the point as well
Looks to me as if there are many IRJ missing, and equally, some power droppers are unnecessary

Well lets see your plan then, cos I'm rather lost!
Every point has two IRJs (as far as I know) one on the end of each frogs Vee rail.
As for droppers,take any way and some track section wont have power when the points are set against them.
But obviously you can see something I cant!
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Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby RFS » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:54 pm

Flashbang wrote:
RFS wrote:You don't need 4 IRJs on the two crossovers - just IRJs on each of the two frog rails. The straight rails only need standard metal joiners.


If you fully read the text in the drawing it clearly states "The two cross-over points have four IRJs per pair of points. Two in the actual cross-over rails and one in each straight Vee rail end". Which is 100% correct - two per point end fitted onto all the post Frog Vee rail ends!

Failure to fit all these IRJs will with feeds after the point result in short circuits occurring. Not fitting all the feeds shown would result in dead track sections when a point is set against that direction. This is not the idea of DCC where all rails are live all the time!


Oops - my mistake! I had the wrong picture iin my mind and misread what you meant by straight rails! I've edited my post to correct that....
Robert Smith

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briantwigley
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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby briantwigley » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:55 pm

I trust Flashbang's advice with electrics, having hung around here quite a long time I know he knows what he's on about.

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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby m8internet » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:12 pm

Flashbang wrote:Well lets see your plan then, cos I'm rather lost!

I can't do a plan, but it is clear one of the rails requires to have IRJ at both ends, hence why the short is occuring
This will depend on the direction of the point to the left hand side, the live rail switches polarity
Glasgow Queen Street Model Railway layout : modern image N gauge using DCC

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Flashbang
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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby Flashbang » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:11 pm

m8internet wrote:
Flashbang wrote:Well lets see your plan then, cos I'm rather lost!

I can't do a plan, but it is clear one of the rails requires to have IRJ at both ends, hence why the short is occuring
This will depend on the direction of the point to the left hand side, the live rail switches polarity

Yeh, seven sets of electro frog points and 14 IRJs in my drawing!
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Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

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Re: Stuck with shorts..

Postby Bufferstop » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:26 pm

I've decided to work on the basis that every point (electrofrog) gets two IRJs on the frog rails, and droppers for the frog and the two stockrails. Then even if it is going to be used in a DC system, it leads to a dead end siding and you are going to rely on the blades for switching, with a dropper from the siding its just a matter of connecting two of them together. Until the day you want to convert it to DCC, then all the wires are already in place.
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