Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

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abenn
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Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby abenn » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:01 pm

The tender of my Bachmann 2251 Collett Goods regularly derails on tightish curves -- particularly the inner branch of a standard Peco curved turnout. It's usually the pair of wheels nearest the loco that derails first, whether it's being pushed or pulled.

I've added lead to the tender, to no avail. It seems to me the only solution is to remove the flanges from the centre pair of wheels. Is there a simple way to get a good result using only hand tools plus a Dremel, please? Or are there readily-available flangless replacements somewhere?

Dad-1
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby Dad-1 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:35 pm

I hate to say it but it's a bit of a design fault ..... or not depending on views.
I have 2 of these and on one of my layouts with standard Peco Set-track points they
derail. As this layout has a 'D' shape each 180 degree curve is made up from 1 x 3rd
radius, 1 x 2nd radius, 2 x 1st radius and the collett goods hates 1st radius.

Why? - very simple you have 3 axles with a very small amount of lateral movement.
To take set-track points & 1st radius curves there is not enough sideways movement.

I tried reducing the back to back measurement on the central set, but the stub of axle
into the axle box is too short and they just fall out. So quite simply they don't run tight
curves.

I've had similar problems with 6 wheel milk tanks. There I could reduce the B2B on the
central set, but then they caught in the point. No problem with either running through
streamline points, small, medium or large.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby Dad-1 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:25 pm

Sorry, I told a porky.

I have a section of a layout out tonight and have just taken both Collett Goods down to run.
My original Collett Goods, 32-306, loco 2253 BR Black Early has the derailing tender. This is a slot attachment for the loco's pin.
It has stub axles that are joined with plastic muffs - a real problem. Grinding off the centre set flanges may work.

My later GWR Collett Goods 32-310, loco 3217 has a different tender with full width axles and considerable side play. I can't have
used this one on my tight layout and based on experience of the original black one I probably wouldn't have bothered. Checking it
out now makes me happy it should work. Still same loco pin, but attached by a small link on the tender.

I doubt that the new tender wheel sets will fit the older locos version.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Mike Parkes
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby Mike Parkes » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:08 pm

Bachmann recommend a minimum of second radius for their locos and Setrack points whilst 2nd radius usually have quite wide flangeways not paryivilarly suitable for the realtvely fine wheels that Bachmann use. Many years ago I had 3 Mainline Collett Goods and resolved a derailing tender problem by swopping the tenders between the locos!

abenn
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby abenn » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:57 am

I thought that the Peco curved point was third and second radius. But how does swapping tenders make a difference? Presumably you're talking about different vintages or models?

All three axles on my tender have considerable side play, though it's obviously not enough. And the tender attaches to the loco with a simple slot over a pin.

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GeoFF03
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby GeoFF03 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:52 pm

I removed the small buffers from the tender front on my Collets. They now run happily around Hornby 1st radius curves and points. Both are older models 32-304 & 32-301, GWR green and early BR black respectively.

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D605Eagle
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby D605Eagle » Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:03 pm

I had one that derailed alot and it wasn't lack of sideplay that was causing it but very badly made side fames so one axle wasn't on the same plain as the other two. I had to elongate the axle hole with an attachment on my minidrill so the axle sat inline with the other two. I also have a later 2251 as well but thats made properly and has never caused an issue. I use lots and lots of peco settrack points, but no curved ones.

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TK421
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby TK421 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:44 pm

A-ha! I got one of these the other month but and had the same problem (maybe that's why the new one's have the rod tender?) but haven't had a chance to investigate, gives me a better idea what to look for.
Commander tear this ship apart until you have found them track plans!

abenn
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby abenn » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:41 pm

Yes, more things to look for. Thanks for the contributions. I'll also put my gauge on the back-to-back wheel measurement to make sure that's not the issue.

Bigmet
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby Bigmet » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:43 am

First and basic thing to check before making any modifications.

How does the tender do when not coupled to the loco, pushed through the known spots where it derails? If it stays on the rails on its own, then use the couplings to hitch the back of the tender to the front of the loco and try the two together. If it still stays on the rails then the problem is all to do with the loco to tender linkage or any fouling parts, probably not allowing the tender to swing enough relative to the loco. See the post earlier where Geoff recorded removing the small buffers on the tender front, that's the type of fix that will cure it if this is the problem.

Only if the tender derails on its own do you want to go to work on the wheels.

Dad-1
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby Dad-1 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:56 am

Hi abenn,

If you have a vernier also check the track width.
On my small oval just pushing the tender by hand you could feel drag building up before one pair of wheels popped
out. This started at the toe of a point and checking track width showed it narrowed slightly - can't remember by
how much. The point wasn't heavily 'nailed down' which can in extreme circumstances result in pinched track.
Obviously with such a tight fit once it hit the curve a derailment was a certainty.

First thought was to reduce the back to back thereby reducing the nip. However on the early Churchward tender
the wheels have the axle stubs as part of the casting, with each side being attached to it's twin by a plastic muff.
Reduction of the muff length let the axles fall out of the axle boxes.

The measurement of both track & wheel back to back is critical, and if you have any poor track joint alignments
that is enough to push over the edge - quite literally !

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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beeman
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby beeman » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:40 pm

I had similar probs couple of Xmases back on Bachman Tornado/ Peppercorn . recollect I removed the centre tender set and filed off the face of the bushes to be flush with the inner wheel faces. and then OK. Beeman.
You wo'nt find you 'CAN' unless you 'TRY'.

abenn
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby abenn » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:39 am

Bigmet, that's a good point. I've checked the wheel back-to-back with my gauge, and they're all okay. So next I'll push it round by hand, and then drive it wrong way round with the loco. I don't understand Geoff's advice about removing the small buffers on the front of the tender though -- there aren't any buffers on mine, except at the rear where it couples up to the rest of the train. (There are two little holes where perhaps buffers were installed at one time, so maybe Bachmann have already omitted them -- or maybe they were loose in the box and I didn't bother to install them.)

Dad-1, unfortunately I don't have a vernier. But I think the points are okay, for all my other locos and rolling stock have no problems on them.

beeman, I'm not sure what you're describing there: Sounds like you're creating more end-play on the centre wheel set, but on mine there's nothing limiting the end-play other than the depth of the "bearing" holes in the axle boxes, and the overall length of the axle from pointy end to pointy end.

Bigmet
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby Bigmet » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:51 am

Sounds like the 'intermediate buffers' representations have either been removed or were not fitted. (Just remember about these for future reference on other models, they are increasingly represented and can majorly obstruct the ability of a loco and tender to take curves when coupled reasonably close. The problem is that they are made rigid in every case I have so far seen on a UK model. Whereas, of all the buffers on a model, these are the ones that need to be softly sprung! I like to set the loco to tender gap to scale which is pretty much always possible on my 30" minimum radius layout. But job 1 is usually to significantly file down solid moulded intermediate buffers, or remove plug in representations. Since this detail is all 'in the dark' under the fall plate which covers the loco to tender gap it is out of sight on the layout.)

Await the results of the tender alone and 'wrong way round' test with interest.

beeman
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Re: Bachmann Collet Goods tender derailing

Postby beeman » Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:26 am

Hi Abenn, the wheel set axle is normally machined to a slightly less diameter to create a shoulder 'STOP' for the wheel plastic bush, the wheels with the bush are pressed on to the axle up to the bush so giving,or should, the correct 'back to back' dimension. If the wheels are removed from the axle. piece of cloth and strong hands usually works, the bush can be filed so almost nothing left of the bush face. when replaced this will effectively reduce the 'b to b' slightly. Make sure not to go too narrow otherwise the wheels might 'drop in' on the curve. The minimum should allow one wheel outer edge to only 'cover' half of the rail one side, with the other wheel fully on.This is one way if one does not have a lathe to machine the axle.When pressing the wheel back on make sure you press on using a piece of metal with a hole small enough for the axle to just pass through so pressing on on the outer face of the bush. Otherwise you may push the bush out of the wheel, the thinned inner face shearing off. Ideally use a vice so small movement/measurements can be made and checking that you don't go to far. piece of hard wood or Aluminum on the other axle end to protect the point, not onto the vice jaw. !. Use the wheels to 'gauge' your track when removed from the tender[u] and check various other places[/u] to see if track happens to be narrow only at the offending positions. This may be needed on the outer wheelsets of the tender also to allow sufficient lateral movement if they are also bit O/S on their B to B settings. I usually fine on mine that a B to B of around 14.3 usually OK..Hope this explains Beeman.
You wo'nt find you 'CAN' unless you 'TRY'.


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