Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

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Bufferstop
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Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:13 am

Meant to ask this a couple of weeks back, but got distracted by approaching events. I can remember Cross Country saying they'd switched off the tilt on the 221s as the routes were timed for a 220, so no advantage. A couple of Saturdays back I got on a Reading-Manchester service at New Street. It was delayed through Wolvo while a Pendolino reversed. I'll swear the tilt was on between Stoke and Mac. Got in early! Any real rail men know if it's been reinstated?
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Re: Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

Postby b308 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:23 am

Tilt on all XC 221s have been removed. They still have a bar on the bogies which some people have mistaken for something to do with tilt, but it isn't. On board all the tilt stuff has been isolated... and as a result they are more reliable. Just for the record a 220 is quicker than a 221 (assuming both with all engines in use) and can keep Pendo timings on non-tilt sections (in fact can be a little quicker - 186 tons and 3000hp go a long way!).

On XC there is no difference between the 220 and 221 classes as far as timings are concerned, just that the 220s find it easier as they are lighter... An HST can't keep Voyager timings though, they are too slow!

That section between SOT and MAC is quite bendy, though, and if you had a driver trying to make up time it can feel as if tilt is there... but it isn't... Some drivers are better than others at "disguising" the speed they are doing... Though they have to be careful these days as the Black Box tells all!!!

(From a "real" railwayman - XC TM! :wink: )

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Re: Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:44 am

Thanks, There's no doubt he was going for it. Was down at Stafford, then had to wait before Norton for a Trent Valley Pendolino that arrived at the same time to go through, before crossing over for the Stoke line. He was 3 minutes up at Stockport, dawdled along to Piccadily and still had to wait for his platform to clear.
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Re: Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

Postby b308 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:29 pm

Sounds about right... we're always hanging around for other TOC's stuff to get out of the way! For some reason (probably make-up time) they are given loads of time between Stockport and Manchester... It can be done in under 10 mins, but very often we are diagrammed 12/15 mins.

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Re: Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:16 pm

Had to make the same journey one evening about three years ago despite waiting for time at every stop we still got in 15minutes early. Does it make a difference to the targets if a train makes it within time at the final destination even though it's been more than 10 minutes late up to the penultimate stop?
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Re: Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

Postby hairyhandedfool » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:57 am

I'm not certain, but I think it is the arrival time at it's destination that is important, which I believe is why it often takes longer to get to the destination from an intermediate stop than to get back!

As an Example, currently, from Eccles (Manchester) to Manchester Victoria is timed at 12 minutes, but from Manchester Victoria to Eccles is 7 minutes.
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b308
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Re: Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

Postby b308 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:11 am

Correct, it is arrival time at destination station which used for the stats. The Manchester run is unusual on our trains in that respect, more often make up time is often between intermediate stations rather than at the end... a good example are the Newcastle trains which are very easily timed up to Doncaster, then very tight from there... especially knowing the vagrancies of the ECML!

I wish we'd do what the Germans do, where they have several minutes standing time at all their stations, on one Regional Express i found we were standing 5 or 10 minutes at stations en route. This does give better time keeping (one reason it tends to be better over there) but does extend journey times. Done correctly, though it could work well. Personally I think we're too hung up on getting there "yesterday"... For most people an extra 10 or 15 mins over several hours' journey would make little difference, but knowing it would get there at the allotted time would happen I tend to feel is more important. That tends to be how most of Europe work and why their timekeeping is "seen" to be better than ours.

But from discussion on HS2 I think we're too hung up on saving that extra 5 mins to even consider slightly longer journey times...

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Re: Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

Postby PTmodeller » Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:40 am

b308, why is a 220 lighter than a 221?

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Re: Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

Postby hairyhandedfool » Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:50 am

The bogies on the 221 bigger and heavier combined with any tilt equipment that may still be fitted to them.
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Re: Cross Country Cl 221s. Is it On or Off

Postby b308 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:55 am

Yep, the 221 bogies included all the tilt stuff and other stuff associated with it and are outside framed which is quite substantial. About 5 tons per coach I think. Taking off the tilt stuff hasn't made all that much difference.


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