GM500 wiring problem

Basic electrical and electronics, such as DC/Analog control.
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lickeyjunction
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby lickeyjunction » Mon Dec 27, 2021 8:45 pm

Hi

Rather than starting another thread, I thought I would ask on this one. MOD NOTE: New thread started to avoid confusion and all posts moved that relate to this topic to this new thread.

I am constructing a control panel and I too want to add led's

I have used GM500's for every single point, or twinned them up if opposing.

If I read this correctly, can I just take a single wire from the frog wire (I modified the electrofrog) and carry that back to the panel, then pick up yhe live and neutral from the bus?

Also, using two led's, just wanted to clarify that wiring as well. Not great with electrics, learning as I go!

Tia
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Flashbang
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby Flashbang » Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:04 pm

lickeyjunction wrote:Hi

Rather than starting another thread, I thought I would ask on this one.

I am constructing a control panel and I too want to add led's

I have used GM500's for every single point, or twinned them up if opposing.

If I read this correctly, can I just take a single wire from the frog wire (I modified the electrofrog) and carry that back to the panel, then pick up yhe live and neutral from the bus?

Also, using two led's, just wanted to clarify that wiring as well. Not great with electrics, learning as I go!

Tia

The first thing I need to ask is, are you using DC or DCC (Digital) as the track power?

With DC you cannot use the rail supply as the supply varies between zero volts and a max. of around 14 volts and reverses polarity with a change of direction of travel.

Using the frog wire can only be done on DCC.
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lickeyjunction
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby lickeyjunction » Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:11 pm

Hi

I am using DCC for locos, but using return to centre toggles for points.

Thanks
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Flashbang
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby Flashbang » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:35 am

Hi
As you use DCC for traction power...
Then you can, if wished, use the DCC to power the panel LEDs. Examples of typical wiring for various types of point and LEDs are shown on my web site here ... https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC-Page-2.html#dccpointindications Of course the two feed wires shown connecting to the rails can come from a DCC sub bus pair of wires run inside the panel, rather than the rails.
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lickeyjunction
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby lickeyjunction » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:23 pm

Many thanks. Sorry my terminologies are wayward!!

I'm getting short between frogs when I switch the pair of points at the moment. I assume that should just be a wire swap?

Then I can crack on with the led's

:D
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby End2end » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:53 pm

Have you replaced the metal fishplates with insulated fishplates / rail joiners (IRJ's) on the V rails of each point lickeyjunction?
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lickeyjunction
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby lickeyjunction » Wed Dec 29, 2021 8:24 am

Hi

Yes, all insulated.

Trains are running fine 'through' the point, but once switch to turn out, it shorts.

I have also removed the two small wires as well and modified the points to power the frog permanently.

Thanks
LJ
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby Flashbang » Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:36 am

As these are Electrofrog points and assuming no additional LED wiring has been installed as yet, then its possible one (or both) points have the following issue.....
Double check that the two tiny link wires on the points Closure rail gaps are completely removed and the two gaps, one in each of the closure rails are actually opened - I've had ones close up and no gap is then present and this causes a short on modified Electrofrog points!
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lickeyjunction
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby lickeyjunction » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:12 pm

Thanks Flashbang

No led's yet, that was my next task.

I wondered about the feed wires but wanted to ask first. Thankfully, i have all of the wires from the GM500 into a choc block first, so i can easily isolate each wire in turn.

With reference to the led's, any recommendations for a supplier please? I see 12v don't need resisters, but whatever works best really. I would like Bi colour red/green if possible

Thanks

LJ
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby Roger (RJ) » Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:21 pm

lickeyjunction wrote:Thanks Flashbang

....... I see 12v don't need resisters, but whatever works best really. I would like Bi colour red/green if possible

LJ


The required resistors are built into them, usually included in the wiring that comes with them and covered with heat-shrink.

zz12V_Led.jpg
zz12V_Led.jpg (5.27 KiB) Viewed 426 times


I don't know of any red/green leds that are 12Volt but that doesn't mean they don't exist somewhere.

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Flashbang
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby Flashbang » Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:09 pm

Personally on a DCC power supply I would opt to use standard LEDs with a series resistor of at least 1K0 Ohms value (1000 Ohms) at 1/4 watt or greater wattage.

A tri colour LEDs (Red / Green) can be used as per my web sites drawing. Just use separate resistors per LED.

I have to ask, why do you need red and green LEDs? Conventional signalling panels on BR use just one colour for the route set and are nominally white or yellow and only lit for the route set, the unset route remains dark (unlit).

IMO too many LED lit on a small mimic panel are too much and far too glaring and somewhat OTT! :o
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lickeyjunction
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby lickeyjunction » Sat Jan 01, 2022 2:56 pm

Flashbang wrote:As these are Electrofrog points and assuming no additional LED wiring has been installed as yet, then its possible one (or both) points have the following issue.....
Double check that the two tiny link wires on the points Closure rail gaps are completely removed and the two gaps, one in each of the closure rails are actually opened - I've had ones close up and no gap is then present and this causes a short on modified Electrofrog points!


Hi

All good on the point wires.

I removed the two frog wires and the loco stalled once it entered the frog from either direction, no short. I assume, as expected.

I have added an image to hopefully assist.

Green = frogs
Red + from rails
Black - from rails
Green + yellow switch
Blue bus from cdu

I paired the + & - from the GM500, to the +/- from the points, to the main bus for each side. Hope that was ok/correct!

I hope I have made sense and sound like I have some idea!!

Thanks
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Flashbang
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby Flashbang » Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:20 pm

Hi
With the frog wires disconnected and no short (but the loco stalls as expected as their is no power on the frog rails) it reads as though either one or both GM500 two track incoming feed wires are the wrong way around (On pads 2 & 3 or 5 & 6 with 1 or 4 to the frog depending on which is used for frog feeding?) Or one of the points closure rail gaps has closed up?

TBH a detail wiring drawing of how the GM500 has been connected up would really be useful on pads 1,2, 3 & 4, 5, 6. A.B.C are not needed :D
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lickeyjunction
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby lickeyjunction » Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:17 pm

Thanks, I'll try!!

Interestingly, I ran a loco over some other points, as I had wired up the whole control panel. One minute they worked perfectly, the next, a short from one direction.

Maybe it is a switching issue???
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GM500 wiring problem

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:52 pm

lickeyjunction wrote: One minute they worked perfectly, the next, a short from one direction.

Reads like a loose switch rail moving under the loco. Check that there are still gaps either through the rail or where the switch rail meets the crossing(frog) rail. If the switch rails can be moved back and forth and cause a short circuit push a sliver of plastic into the gap, with a spot of superglue to fix it to the rail. When it's set firm trim it to the same as the rail profile.
Switch rails that slide towards the frog were introduced by Peco, probably unknowingly, but some would say they did it to stop us feeling smug that we'd solved what to do with points.
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