Point motors

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poliss
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Re: Point motors

Postby poliss » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:55 pm

Depends on which decoder you have. The Elite has major problems with the older R8216 point decoder.

AndyCott
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Re: Point motors

Postby AndyCott » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:14 pm

And I'll give you a guess to which ones I have got? :roll:
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poliss
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Re: Point motors

Postby poliss » Tue Dec 28, 2010 9:25 pm

The R8216 requires certain procedures in order to programme it successfully using an ELITE.. see below..

The later R8247 does not require any special procedures in programming.. please note the R8247 was incorrectly labelled as an R8216 in production.. i.e. the aluminium product label on the underside of the unit is incorrect.. However the packaging and instructions are correct. There is a date code on the underside of the unit.. engraved into the underside you will find the numbers 50/07.. this identifies the unit as R8247. Any earlier date code is a R8216.

Using an ELITE to programme the Point Decoder R8216.

Please note that the firmware version of the ELITE has no bearing on the following..

The following notes and procedure should help with the process of programming the Hornby point decoder with the ELITE controller.. For those of you who have used a SELECT controller to set up you points and now are experiencing “no response” please refer to the note in red at the end regarding point address numbering translation between the SELECT and ELITE controllers...

ELITE controller.. Point Decoder R8216 Programming Procedure..

1, When the Point Decoder successfully programmes it activates channel 1 of the Point Decoder. This behaviour can be used as an indicator that programming has been successful. Connect a Hornby Point motor to the first channel output of the Point Decoder.

Ensure that you have the point motor correctly connected..

Red = +

Black = C

Green = - ***

*** it is possible that this wire may be Brown or White depending on when your point motor was manufactured.

2, Set the point motor armature is set centrally between the two coils. When the point motor activates it will throw the armature towards one of the coils, there will be an audible click from the solenoid as this happens. This procedure is advised; as it will make it easier to tell when the point motor armature has been thrown… thus indicating successful programming.

3, Connect the Point Decoder to the programming track and carry out the programming procedure as directed in the ELITE manual page 39.. ensure that you use “Reg” mode.. For an explanation regarding address ranges available for use with Point Decoder R8216 please see explanations below.

4, It is likely that the point motor will fail to programme on first attempt… (this is normal) after the initial programme cycle has been executed the ELITE display will show the message.. “Address”.. Pressing the control knob (knob 1 in the example in the manual) 3 times in succession will repeat the programming cycle… repeat this action until the point motor is activated as described above.

Explanations..

Address Ranges..

The Point Decoder has four output ports that are set in a group of four consecutive addresses. The address range is 1-252.

If you programme the Point Decoder as any number in the range 1-4, e.g. 3, the 4 output ports of the Point Decoder will be allocated as addresses... 1, 2, 3, and 4.

If you programme the Point Decoder as any number in the range 5-8 e.g. 7, the 4 output ports of the Point Decoder will be allocated to addresses 5, 6, 7, and 8.

These batches of 4 addresses are often referred to as Groups. Therefore, Group 1 will be addresses 1-4, Group 2 will be address range 5-8 and so on. Up to a total of 63 groups possible groups.

…….

Why won’t the Point Decoder programme on the first attempt when using my ELITE?

When I used a SELECT to programme the Point Decoders, all worked fine. Now I have an ELITE and it won’t programme my Point Decoders.. what’s going on?

The Point Decoder R8216 was primarily designed to be used with the Hornby SELECT unit. The SELECT does not have a dedicated programme output like the ELITE. This is a crucial difference when programming the Point Decoder R8216 with the ELITE. The SELECT output has a high current capability while the ELITE utilises a low current dedicated programme track output. In order to programme the Point Decoder the onboard capacitors that make up the point motor control output need to be charged. When a non-charged Point Decoder is connected to the programming track these capacitors will effectively sap all the power until they are charged. Since power is only applied to the programming track during the programming cycle, it may take several “goes” before the capacitors reach charge.. thus allowing successful programming.

…………………

Notes..
1, Precharging the Point Decoder before attempting to programme can cut down the number of programme cycles needed to successfully programme the Point Decoder. To precharge the Point Decoder, simply connect it temporarily to the main track output of the ELITE for about 7-10 seconds, then disconnect and carry out the programming procedure outlined above.

2, Also, if after precharging, you temporarily connect a 50ohm 5watt resistor between the + (positive) of output port 4 of the Point Decoder and either of the programme output connections on the ELITE controller you will be able to programme the Point Decoder on the first attempt. The resistor maintains the charge on the internal Point Decoder capacitors as described above.
..

3, If you have programmed your point address range using a SELECT starting at 60 to 63, you will find that when connecting to an ELITE controller the points will respond to 57-60. i.e. your first point in the group is 57 not 60. This is because, early SELECTs pre firmware 1.1, allowed 60 to be used as the first number within the first point group. Version 1.1 SELECTs start the point numbering for the first point group as 61-64. This corresponds with the normal NMRA practice..

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Silver Surfer
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Re: Point motors

Postby Silver Surfer » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:52 am

Blimey poliss that's a bit complicated.....

Glad I use Cobalt motors with their Ad1 or Ad4 point motor decoders - only programming you have to do is give each one an address - two minutes, job done.

The decoders work on DCC or DC (you don't even have to give them addresses if you're DC) so they're almost plug and play. Can control them via your throttle and/or via push to make buttons on up to two panels - yes both systems at once on DCC, if you want. As I continue to replace old motors with Cobalts, my intention is to have route setting on my NCE throttle with indiviual point control on a panel (or two) for shunting. You could spend all your time messing about like you've suggested above, but really in todays age of super-electronics etc, it shouldn't be necessary.

Okay they cost a bit more (£16.85 for the motor and £9.75 for the decoder - so about £25 per point) but I think they're well worth the investment as they eliminate troubles such as these, also no soldering, almost no programming -addressing only, slow realistic action, minimal wiring, absolute control, no contest.

Me?, I've done the a***ing about aligning Peco and Hornby points then trying to get them to work properly, adding CDU's etc, etc. Now? I just like to 'play trains'

Mike

PS - In case you're wondering, Ad1 and Ad4 decoders will only work Cobalt and Tortoise motors, try 'em on any other motor, like a solenoid, and you'll likely invalidate the excellent guarantee.
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poliss
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Re: Point motors

Postby poliss » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:10 pm

Roco make a dedicated DCC point control panel, so no messing about swapping between loco and point control on your DCC controller.
The instructions for programming the R8216 with the Elite were sent by Hornby to a friend of mine who was having problems with the accessory decoder. It's a pity they don't put them on their website, but I suppose that if they did it might put people off buying them.

AndyCott
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Re: Point motors

Postby AndyCott » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:37 pm

Right then, The point decoder I have wired up at the moment says 50/07 on the bottom so that is R8247 correct? So that will be ok with a Elite unit? The other point decoder I have still in it's box says 05/07 on the bottom so it is a R8216 which needs the extra *programming* to work with the Elite?

So if I get a Elite unit that provides 4amp power to the track and follow the programming guide kindly posted by Poliss, The points will have enough power to operate correctly?
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Re: Point motors

Postby Essex2Visuvesi » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:48 pm

AndyCott wrote:Just been thinking, Would a Hornby Elite controller provide the extra power?


Only If its supplied with the 4 amp supply mentioned above, otherwise you will still need to upgrade to the 4 amp unit
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AndyCott
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Re: Point motors

Postby AndyCott » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:54 pm

Essex2Visuvesi wrote:
AndyCott wrote:Just been thinking, Would a Hornby Elite controller provide the extra power?


Only If its supplied with the 4 amp supply mentioned above, otherwise you will still need to upgrade to the 4 amp unit



Just got this from the Hornby website,

Power
The Elite is supplied with a 4 amp transformer. 3 amps is passed directly to the tracks and 1amp is for the Accessories,

The point decoder takes it power from the track and the Select I am using only puts out 1amp to the track, So I will have a the point decoder being given 3amps of power from the tack? Or just the 1amp for the accessories?
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Roger (RJ)
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Re: Point motors

Postby Roger (RJ) » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:00 pm

The Elite's difficulty in programming the R8216 point decoders is due to the reduced power that is supplied from the programming track output. This power is deliberately limited to prevent decoders from burning out if there are any wiring faults. This mainly applies to loco decoders where it is more likely that a short circuit may occur when first installed. The Select does not have any inbuilt current limiting or a programming track supply and uses the main track for programming. The inbuilt CDU in the decoders takes time to charge up and as the Elite (and some other controllers) only applies power to the programming track when programming pulses are being sent, the decoder needs multiple programming attempts and / or pre-charging. It is this difference that causes the Elite to have problems when programming the R8216 decoders.

Basically, as stated in Poliss's earlier posting, the R8216 was designed to be used with the Select. The R8247 has been designed to work with the Elite and the Select.

AndyCott
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Re: Point motors

Postby AndyCott » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:06 pm

So if I leave the track *Powered up* for awhile the CDU's will power up?
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Silver Surfer
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Re: Point motors

Postby Silver Surfer » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:31 am

Hi Andy

Sounds like you need to talk to someone about model railway electronics/electrics - glean some information on a one to one basis. Preferably not your local Retailer who more than likely will be intent on selling product and not necessarily giving you best advice.

Try a local model railway club (Nottingham Model Railway Club near you - based on Wells Road in the city who usually meet every week) they will freely give you advice on what you need to know and point you in the right direction. NMRC usually have a pretty large exhibition (normally mid March at Harvey Haddon Stadium, Bilborough) with many people who will give advice to you about electrics/electronics - well worth a visit.

You also seem 'hooked' on one well known manufacturer and, to be perfectly honest IMHO, their electronics gear is naff at best and almost unuseable at worst - try and steer clear of this make when making further electronics kit purchases as it may solve a lot of your present problems. They do however make some great locos and rolling stock.

Mike

ps. If you don't want to go the Club route, nip down to West Park in Bridgford when they have a 'model railway sale' and pick a few brains.
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AndyCott
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Re: Point motors

Postby AndyCott » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:35 pm

Thank you Silver Surfer.

Today I have been trying to solve the problem further and have found that the old style motors (hidden in Lamp huts) I have work but the brand new surface ones just click. I left the power to the track on for about a hour to let the CPU's charge, So I'm kind of 50% of the way there....................
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Roger (RJ)
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Re: Point motors

Postby Roger (RJ) » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:48 pm

Check your wiring.
Hornby surface mounted point motors use the BLACK wire as the common.
Peco surface mounted point motors use the GREEN wire as the common.

The CDU (Capacitor Discharge Unit) should charge up in just a few seconds when connected to the main track.

AndyCott
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Re: Point motors

Postby AndyCott » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:50 pm

Got it wired ok, black is common on them all. (they are all Hornby)
It's not a bald spot. It's a thumb mark!

AndyCott
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Re: Point motors

Postby AndyCott » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:10 pm

Quick update, The surface mounted point motors work perfecf when not attatched to the track :? :?
It's not a bald spot. It's a thumb mark!


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