Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

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noel
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby noel » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:35 pm

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BE WARNED


"PLEASE NOTE: I HAVE PLACED A POSTAGE COST OF £5.50 ON THIS ITEM
WHICH IS PRIMARILY TO GIVE A REALISTIC COST FOR THE UNIT BECAUSE
OF A STARTING COST OF 99P."

This may be against eBay rules.

I agree with other comments, that this is not a very wise purchase.

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Last edited by noel on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

noel
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby noel » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:43 pm

Flashbang wrote:
Hi
You use a common feed wire inside the panel. The wire is of reasonable
wire size and starts at the CDUs positive output terminal and runs to the
common (central) wiring tag of point switch 1 then onto point switch 2
and onto point switch 3 etc.
(NB - only one "etc." required!)

To fire more than one point often suggests a selection of routes that can
be managed with a matrix of diodes(Peco's "Wiring The Layout - Part 2")

Does this thread go there?

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Flashbang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby Flashbang » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:39 pm

noel wrote:
Flashbang wrote:
Hi
You use a common feed wire inside the panel. The wire is of reasonable
wire size and starts at the CDUs positive output terminal and runs to the
common (central) wiring tag of point switch 1 then onto point switch 2
and onto point switch 3 etc.
(NB - only one "etc." required!)

To fire more than one point often suggests a selection of routes that can
be managed with a matrix of diodes(Peco's "Wiring The Layout - Part 2")

Does this thread go there?

+

eh?
Pardon me for my obviously very bad English!!!!
No, if you read the thread it has nothing to do with route setting. Its all about basic panel building and the basic wiring required.
If you wish to use the Peco 'How to' booklets, that's fine.

You can operate two (or more if wished) solenoid point motors simultaneously from one switch/push button/stud powered from a CDU. Often this is where a cross-over pair of points or a three way point or even a double need the two motors both to move together.
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bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:11 am

Apollo - will need to get the wife to point out the green wires as I am red/green colour blind!! I think I can see some wires daisy chaining their way across the boards but will get the wife to point them out for me - I suppose thats why I'm not using red or green wires when wiring up my layout (I use either or, but not both at once)

Noel - I didn't win the auction anyway and had noticed that on the auction listing and thought that it could be against ebay rules, but I couldn't be bothered pointing it out to anyone. How much do the components cost to put one of these together - can't be much as I saw a CDU kit being B-I-N on ebay for £4.75. I'll be buying one of the ready made ones from somewhere - possibly the Gaugemaster one as the docs say it can fire six turnouts at once (not like I'm going to be firing 6 at once, but its nice to know that it can do 2/3 comfortably. I think it was flashbang who mentioned there are others available, so the decision on which one to buy is still not decided.

I won't be messing with mains voltage inside the box - I never said I was going to anyway - I did say I was considering adding an on /off switch, HOWEVER it would have been in the wiring between the CDU and the toggle switches, but like I said before, It only adds in another connection which could cause problems down the line so i will rely on the on/off switch at the wall socket for the PSU.


Flashbang - Thanks for clearing my confusion regarding the definitions :) As you can guess, this is the first time venturing into the vast world of point motors, cdu's and wiring diagrams :oops: :D

noel
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby noel » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Flashbang wrote: eh?
..............
No, if you read the thread it has nothing to do with route setting.
Its all about basic panel building and the basic wiring required.


I like to measure twice before I cut.

If you are panel building, I think the choice will seriously determine
the building of the panel - the graphics of the track diagram, the
designation of the push and make switches, and their wiring.

- plan ahead. :wink: :wink:

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bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:13 pm

noel wrote:
Flashbang wrote: eh?
..............
No, if you read the thread it has nothing to do with route setting.
Its all about basic panel building and the basic wiring required.


I like to measure twice before I cut.

If you are panel building, I think the choice will seriously determine
the building of the panel - the graphics of the track diagram, the
designation of the push and make switches, and their wiring.

- plan ahead. :wink: :wink:

+



The control box is nearly complete - itsa a total of 13 inches wide, 13 inches deep, and approx 5 inches thick. There will be a hinged lid on it, but I need to go and buy a hinge cutter to make use of some cupboard hinges which should prevent the lid moving around. Either that, or I could just use a couple of standard butt hinges and add in a couple of pieces of timber on the inside of the lid.

Not had a chance to order any toggle switches yet, but have got the wire for wiring up the unit.

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Flashbang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby Flashbang » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:25 pm

bluechang wrote:The control box is nearly complete - itsa a total of 13 inches wide, 13 inches deep, and approx 5 inches thick. There will be a hinged lid on it, but I need to go and buy a hinge cutter to make use of some cupboard hinges which should prevent the lid moving around. Either that, or I could just use a couple of standard butt hinges and add in a couple of pieces of timber on the inside of the lid.

Not had a chance to order any toggle switches yet, but have got the wire for wiring up the unit.

Hi
Pleased to read you're progressing well. :D
Consider 1/2 inch wide (possibly metric now?) piano hinge.
It runs the full length of the panel and holds the top in place well. Piano hinge is normally sold in brass or brass effect and plated finishes. Some stores sell it in long lengths, while others will sell it in 12", 24" and 36" (or metric equivalent) lengths which you can reduce in length to suit. You can fix it to the main panels box framing with small countersunk wood screws and to the lifting panels top with either small countersunk or pan head machine screws (bolts) with a washer and nut underneath.
If you do use piano hinge fix it so as its folded back on its self so as most of the hinge is invisible when the top is closed and only the actual round part showing at the rear when the panel is closed. Then fix the hinge to the box frame side with a wood screw in every other pre drilled hole and then the top is fixed with the bolts in every other opposite set of holes. Finally drill the unused holes in the box side large enough to accommodate the thread of the bolt and its nut.
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Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:35 pm

I had one of them piano hinges, just that I didn't need a box as big as 60cm wide otherwise I would have used that as its on the shelf (waiting for a use for it - It was to be used to add an additional section on the pull out tray for the keyboard, but I never got around to fixing it in place)

I'll post a photo tomorrow of what I have constructed -I will forewarn you, it is a very rough box, but it is square and solid which I feel is the most important aspects.

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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:13 pm

As promised, here is some photos of the nearly completed control panel, made out of scraps of left over timber I had knocking around the house.

Image
Image
Image
Image

As mentioned, it just needs the hinges fitting, which I'll be getting on my next visit to ASDA/Wickes on Friday morning. I have been looking at ebay once again at CDU's and have found these two. I will be buying one of these today or tomorrow and wanted your advice as to which one to purchase - both are £10 delivered
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140434349789&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1028wt_1137 and this one http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370238239598&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1908wt_1137


Is there any difference apart from the appearance and the £0.20 difference in price?

Now the box is nearly complete, I need to figure out which way to display the turnouts on the top and also purchase the correct toggle switches. I very nearly bought them from ebay at £0.99 for the 1st, then £0.65 each after the 1st, based on the fact that the listing said they were momentarily biased to (ON), however when emailing the seller, s/he tells me they are no such thing and that they don't stock them anyway! bit of a lucky escape there I think. I'm going to re-look at the rapid electronics link that was posted in this thread for the switches and get them ordered - at least I can get the control panel wired up even if they won't be wired to turnout motors (as I haven't get enough of them (have 2 need total of 14)

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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby Flashbang » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:06 pm

bluechang wrote:As promised, here is some photos of the nearly completed control panel, made out of scraps of left over timber I had knocking around the house.

Image
Image
Image
Image

As mentioned, it just needs the hinges fitting, which I'll be getting on my next visit to ASDA/Wickes on Friday morning. I have been looking at ebay once again at CDU's and have found these two. I will be buying one of these today or tomorrow and wanted your advice as to which one to purchase - both are £10 delivered
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140434349789&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1028wt_1137 and this one http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370238239598&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1908wt_1137


Is there any difference apart from the appearance and the £0.20 difference in price?

Now the box is nearly complete, I need to figure out which way to display the turnouts on the top and also purchase the correct toggle switches. I very nearly bought them from ebay at £0.99 for the 1st, then £0.65 each after the 1st, based on the fact that the listing said they were momentarily biased to (ON), however when emailing the seller, s/he tells me they are no such thing and that they don't stock them anyway! bit of a lucky escape there I think. I'm going to re-look at the rapid electronics link that was posted in this thread for the switches and get them ordered - at least I can get the control panel wired up even if they won't be wired to turnout motors (as I haven't get enough of them (have 2 need total of 14)

Hi
Either CDU is fine Your choice :D

Your panel switches for solenoid point motors MUST be non locking spring return to central off type. Often referred to as (On)-Off-(On) switches The bracketed 'On' being momentary make contacts while the switches lever or Toggle is physically held over. You can use SPDT or DPDT types, whichever is the cheaper to buy. DPDT will give you an extra row of switch contacts that aren't used normally. Just ensure they are sprung to centre off. :D :D
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bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:14 pm

I know they must be non locking - it was mentioned in one of the posts further up the thread. I did say that I emailed the seller asking for a combined price inc postage and they advised of the error in the listing, which is why I said I had a bit of a lucky escape :D

I will order the CDU after dinner and find a place to order the toggle switches - either NMS (here) or Rapid online as, taking the postage into account, there isn't any price difference (ok, maybe a few pence, but not a lot)

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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby Flashbang » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:08 pm

bluechang wrote:I know they must be non locking - it was mentioned in one of the posts further up the thread. I did say that I emailed the seller asking for a combined price inc postage and they advised of the error in the listing, which is why I said I had a bit of a lucky escape :D

I will order the CDU after dinner and find a place to order the toggle switches - either NMS (here) or Rapid online as, taking the postage into account, there isn't any price difference (ok, maybe a few pence, but not a lot)

Hi
These are 5 for £4.75 (£0.95 each) plus £1.00 P & P plus £0.10p for additional items.
Toggle switches on ebay

However, Rapid at £0.69 incl VAT each has to be one of the cheapest.
If you made up a larger order of perhaps - wire, solder, soldering iron?. LEDs, LED clips, resistors etc you might be able to get the order quantity to above the free postage threshold??
Rapid toggle switches Part No 75-0086

Mimic track plan with the points can be easily made by using self adhesive car lining tape (pin stripe tape). I have used the 2.0mm or 2.5mm wide versions in various colours successfully.
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Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:22 pm

I have a further question regarding the Seep Point motors. I have 2 of the PM-2's which are just the basic point motor without any accessory switches, or the self latching variety. Now, my preferred supplier (Hattons as its local) has sold out of the PM-2's (I know as I bought their last 2) If I were to buy the PM-1's could I not just wire it up in a similar fashion to the PM-2, making use of solder tabs A, B and C and leaving the others blank, or will they need to be wired somehow? I'm thinking of going down this route, so I can get on with things as my pace is slow at the best of times, but I feel I have been going slower than snails pace in the last week or so.

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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby Flashbang » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:35 pm

bluechang wrote:I have a further question regarding the Seep Point motors. I have 2 of the PM-2's which are just the basic point motor without any accessory switches, or the self latching variety. Now, my preferred supplier (Hattons as its local) has sold out of the PM-2's (I know as I bought their last 2) If I were to buy the PM-1's could I not just wire it up in a similar fashion to the PM-2, making use of solder tabs A, B and C and leaving the others blank, or will they need to be wired somehow? I'm thinking of going down this route, so I can get on with things as my pace is slow at the best of times, but I feel I have been going slower than snails pace in the last week or so.

Hi
You are correct. :D
Only wiring operation feeds onto SEEP PM1 terminals 'A' & 'B' and return on 'C'.
Leaving 'D', 'E' & 'F' free for later use if needed - They are ideal for switching LED panel indications!

Its actually always best to be slow and double check what your doing. Far fewer errors are then made! :D :D

BTW. The panel is looking good.
The only thing I would say is.... Be cautious of that the metal chain, that it doesn't sort circuit anything when the lid is closed! I have used both thin cord or some flexible plastic strapping sold by B & Q to prevent cupboard doors from opening too far, which was much like cord, on all of my panels!
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Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:17 pm

Flashbang wrote:
bluechang wrote:I have a further question regarding the Seep Point motors. I have 2 of the PM-2's which are just the basic point motor without any accessory switches, or the self latching variety. Now, my preferred supplier (Hattons as its local) has sold out of the PM-2's (I know as I bought their last 2) If I were to buy the PM-1's could I not just wire it up in a similar fashion to the PM-2, making use of solder tabs A, B and C and leaving the others blank, or will they need to be wired somehow? I'm thinking of going down this route, so I can get on with things as my pace is slow at the best of times, but I feel I have been going slower than snails pace in the last week or so.

Hi
You are correct. :D
Only wiring operation feeds onto SEEP PM1 terminals 'A' & 'B' and return on 'C'.
Leaving 'D', 'E' & 'F' free for later use if needed - They are ideal for switching LED panel indications!

Its actually always best to be slow and double check what your doing. Far fewer errors are then made! :D :D

BTW. The panel is looking good.
The only thing I would say is.... Be cautious of that the metal chain, that it doesn't sort circuit anything when the lid is closed! I have used both thin cord or some flexible plastic strapping sold by B & Q to prevent cupboard doors from opening too far, which was much like cord, on all of my panels!



It did kind of dawn on me that the chain may be a slight issue when I was taking the photos - I will replace it later on with something more electric friendly once the hinge(s) are on (leaving it on for now to keep the two sections tied together)

I was wondering what accessory you could attach to the point motor and thinking about it, that might be the better option to get, as if I want to illuminate the control panel with direction leds, then at least it takes some of the hassle out of working out how to get it all working - I should really have put this thread up BEFORE buying the point motors, as it means I now have two motors which are the basic variety, which I could use on areas where two turnouts are switched with the one toggle switch


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