Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

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bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:09 pm

Flashbang wrote:
bluechang wrote:I know they must be non locking - it was mentioned in one of the posts further up the thread. I did say that I emailed the seller asking for a combined price inc postage and they advised of the error in the listing, which is why I said I had a bit of a lucky escape :D

I will order the CDU after dinner and find a place to order the toggle switches - either NMS (here) or Rapid online as, taking the postage into account, there isn't any price difference (ok, maybe a few pence, but not a lot)

Hi
These are 5 for £4.75 (£0.95 each) plus £1.00 P & P plus £0.10p for additional items.
Toggle switches on ebay

However, Rapid at £0.69 incl VAT each has to be one of the cheapest.
If you made up a larger order of perhaps - wire, solder, soldering iron?. LEDs, LED clips, resistors etc you might be able to get the order quantity to above the free postage threshold??
Rapid toggle switches Part No 75-0086

Mimic track plan with the points can be easily made by using self adhesive car lining tape (pin stripe tape). I have used the 2.0mm or 2.5mm wide versions in various colours successfully.



I am thinking of giving the box a coat of primer and then will either do as you suggested, using the pin stripe tape, or I could get the acrylics and a paint brush out and using maskling tape, mask out the areas to be painted.

With regards to Rapidonline - There isn't anything I need. I went out and bought myself a temperature controlled soldering iron from Maplins when they were doing a £30 one for £10 - I could probably do with some solder and maybe if I'm going to go down the route of buying the PM-1's with the accessory switches I could get some LED's which would then mean I will need additional wire - I suppose I could look at putting an order together and the same on NMS as well to see what the difference in cost is.

bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:06 pm

From the basics I have read regarding LEDs, each LEd has two legs, and if wired in the incorrect way, will not light? Now, as I have two turnouts without an accessory switch built in, I am planning on teaming them up with one that does for the turnouts where both are going to be thrown by the single toggle switch - I was going to ask whether there was a way of wiring two LEDS up so that when one was on the other was off and vice-versa, however, thinking about it, I could wire two LEDS up in series and just place them in the correct positions without having to complicate the wiring any further than it is.

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Flashbang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby Flashbang » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:32 pm

bluechang wrote:From the basics I have read regarding LEDs, each LEd has two legs, and if wired in the incorrect way, will not light? Now, as I have two turnouts without an accessory switch built in, I am planning on teaming them up with one that does for the turnouts where both are going to be thrown by the single toggle switch - I was going to ask whether there was a way of wiring two LEDS up so that when one was on the other was off and vice-versa, however, thinking about it, I could wire two LEDS up in series and just place them in the correct positions without having to complicate the wiring any further than it is.

Hi
Standard LEDs (single colour ones) have two leads the longer one is normally the Positive (Anode) lead.
Tri and some Bi coloured LED have three leads.
LEDs will l need a series resistor. Except those rated at 12 volts and running on 12 volts.
The resistor can be wired into either of the LEDs leads. It doesn't matter which. Though where two LEDs indicate the position of a point and only one is illuminated at once, it would make sense to wire the resistor into the Negative supply side with the two LEDs Cathode (Negative) leads connected together then onto the resistor.

All of this plus more info. on Seep PM1 and LED panel indications can be found by reading though this web site. This a link to the electrical pages where details of LEDs and Seep PM1 can be found by scrolling down the page. Main web site link
LED Panel Indications link
LED link
[Image << Click the Icon to go to my website
Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:45 pm

Thanks for the link Flashbang - its a bit too late to be trying to read and digest everything on the brian lambert website at this time of night. if I get a chance in the morning I will go and have a re-read - I'm starting to think adding the LED's might not be such a good idea now, having to figure out resistors and the like (if needed).

I am looking at these LED's http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?&tier1=Electronic+Components&tier2=Optoelectronics&tier3=Miniature+Lamps&tier4=Grain+of+wheat+bulbs&moduleno=73584&catref=41-0160 order code 41-0160 12V 80mA White Miniature Wheat Lamp. From what you mentioned in your post, these will not require a resistor as they are running at 12v? But the PSU is (or will be when I buy it) rated at 16v AC running through the CDU isn't it (the Hornby one on the Hattons website - R964)

To try and explain what I am planning to do to ask whether it would work, I have doodled on paint and come up with this
Image
Two leds wired in series will be soldered to each side of the accessory switch so when the single PM-1 is triggered the lights switch on or off as I am planning on pairing up the two PM-2's with a PM-1 to use them on this layout rather than leaving them in the box and wasting my money. On the control panel, the led's with be inserted to show what it shows in the diagram above.

UK_Apollo
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby UK_Apollo » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:29 pm

I used these LED's from Rapid:

LED, 5mm, 12V, Red 56-1550 12p each
LED, 5mm, 12V, Green 56-1555 12p each
LED, 5mm, 12V, Yellow 56-1560 15p each
LED Mounting Bezel 55-0260 22p each

I found an old mobile phone charger in my parts bin that outputs 12Vdc (actually a few Volts under, but it makes no difference). If you haven't got one, I bet you could scrounge one from somewhere. Cut the connector off, split the wires and connected it into the control panel. No resistors required. Works great.

Apollo

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Flashbang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby Flashbang » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:26 am

bluechang wrote:Thanks for the link Flashbang - its a bit too late to be trying to read and digest everything on the brian lambert website at this time of night. if I get a chance in the morning I will go and have a re-read - I'm starting to think adding the LED's might not be such a good idea now, having to figure out resistors and the like (if needed).

I am looking at these LED's http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?&tier1=Electronic+Components&tier2=Optoelectronics&tier3=Miniature+Lamps&tier4=Grain+of+wheat+bulbs&moduleno=73584&catref=41-0160 order code 41-0160 12V 80mA White Miniature Wheat Lamp. From what you mentioned in your post, these will not require a resistor as they are running at 12v? But the PSU is (or will be when I buy it) rated at 16v AC running through the CDU isn't it (the Hornby one on the Hattons website - R964)

To try and explain what I am planning to do to ask whether it would work, I have doodled on paint and come up with this
<image removed>
Two leds wired in series will be soldered to each side of the accessory switch so when the single PM-1 is triggered the lights switch on or off as I am planning on pairing up the two PM-2's with a PM-1 to use them on this layout rather than leaving them in the box and wasting my money. On the control panel, the led's with be inserted to show what it shows in the diagram above.

Hi
Those are not LEDs They are tiny filament lamps. The are not suitable for panel indications as they will get very hot and probably wont last very long.

These mentioned by UK_Appollo are LEDs and are rated at 12 volts dc there are others rated at 5 Volts dc too so ensure you get the correct type. Here is the link Link to 12v LEDs

As you only have one Seep PM1 which has the on board change-over switch then the cross-over should be wired for indications like this. Note; the one motors switching providing both points indication and you rely on the other non switch fitted motor actually following the fitted one correctly!

Image
Last edited by Flashbang on Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
[Image << Click the Icon to go to my website
Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:30 am

Its always good to check with you guys before buying as I'd probably end up buying the wrong items and then having to redo everything!

bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:02 pm

UK_Apollo wrote:I used these LED's from Rapid:

LED, 5mm, 12V, Red 56-1550 12p each
LED, 5mm, 12V, Green 56-1555 12p each
LED, 5mm, 12V, Yellow 56-1560 15p each
LED Mounting Bezel 55-0260 22p each

I found an old mobile phone charger in my parts bin that outputs 12Vdc (actually a few Volts under, but it makes no difference). If you haven't got one, I bet you could scrounge one from somewhere. Cut the connector off, split the wires and connected it into the control panel. No resistors required. Works great.

Apollo

I can't believe the prices Maplins charge for their LED's, LED panel clips and toggle switches! They want £52 for the bits Rapid sell for under £30 - I will see if I have a spare charger knocking about here - if not, then I'll have to buy one (maybe from ebay) What would be the absolute minimum rating for the PSU for the LED's?

I've ordered the CDU which is something. I decided on the slightly more expensive one (£9.95) and that will be here in a few days. The other bits (LED's and toggle switches etc etc will be ordered later once I can find my wallet!! I am definitely going to make the panel detachable mainly so I can wire the panel up away from the layout (its in the bedroom directly above the kids room meaning I won't be able to work on it when the kids are in bed) I can see me having to buy a good few of the d connectors with the quantity of wires coming from the control panel - How many did you use for yours?

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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby Flashbang » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:31 pm

bluechang wrote:
UK_Apollo wrote:I used these LED's from Rapid:

LED, 5mm, 12V, Red 56-1550 12p each
LED, 5mm, 12V, Green 56-1555 12p each
LED, 5mm, 12V, Yellow 56-1560 15p each
LED Mounting Bezel 55-0260 22p each

I found an old mobile phone charger in my parts bin that outputs 12Vdc (actually a few Volts under, but it makes no difference). If you haven't got one, I bet you could scrounge one from somewhere. Cut the connector off, split the wires and connected it into the control panel. No resistors required. Works great.

Apollo

I can't believe the prices Maplins charge for their LED's, LED panel clips and toggle switches! They want £52 for the bits Rapid sell for under £30 - I will see if I have a spare charger knocking about here - if not, then I'll have to buy one (maybe from ebay) What would be the absolute minimum rating for the PSU for the LED's?
I've ordered the CDU which is something. I decided on the slightly more expensive one (£9.95) and that will be here in a few days. The other bits (LED's and toggle switches etc etc will be ordered later once I can find my wallet!! I am definitely going to make the panel detachable mainly so I can wire the panel up away from the layout (its in the bedroom directly above the kids room meaning I won't be able to work on it when the kids are in bed) I can see me having to buy a good few of the d connectors with the quantity of wires coming from the control panel - How many did you use for yours?


Hi
If you use 12 volt rated LEDs or normal LEDs with 1K0 resistors on 12volts the current drawn per LED will be around 10millamps (0.01A). So depending on the amount of lit LEDs your chosen PSU needs to feed, I guess a minimum 100ma (= max of 10 Lit LEDs) with 400ma being the better. Note: most mobile phone charges are not 12 volt output. More like 5 to 6 volts.

If 12 volts dc is the chosen voltage, then one of these from this list may be of use?.....http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/Power-Supplies/Plug-In-PSUs/AC-AC-and-AC-DC-plugtop-linear-PSU/71060/kw/Power+supplies
Or the 1.2Amp regulated and adjustable voltage PSU from Maplin for just under a tenner http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=32754
Or this1.0Amp unregulated PSU one on ebay for under £5 incl P & P ebay 12v PSU
[Image << Click the Icon to go to my website
Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

UK_Apollo
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby UK_Apollo » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:56 pm

Ask your friends and family for the power supply...I had about 5 of the things lying around, all at different voltages. Camera's, phone's, joysticks, etc all use them and eventually get thrown away.

I've just checked what I'm using - it's 7Vdc, 300mA. I'm lighting up 22 of the 12V LED's and they're bright enough to see in daylight, no problem.

My D Connectors came from Rapid (I bought everything in one go!):
D Connector, 25 Way, Socket ...15-0160...58p
D Connector, 25 Way, Plug.......15-0110...58p
D Connector Cover, 25 Way......15-0240...41p

I doubt that it's relevant how many connectors I used, given that I have two baseboards to connect and am on DC wiring (lots of isolation sections to wire up). However, it was 4 x 25 ways (i.e. 100 connection points). You may be able to add up how many you will need (number of points, bus wires, lighting, etc), but as I mentioned before, I'd allow for more connections than you expect.

I made up each cable by hand, using 16/0.2mm wire soldered to the plug/socket. It was a long and rather tedious job, but at least I know each connection has a fair current rating, unlike what you might get if you bought "computer cables". With 25 wires, each bundle is a 'snug' fit into the D connector cover, but they *do* fit!

Something I found really difficult was making the slots to hold the D connectors in the panel. The holes need to be pretty accurately shaped and without machining equipment I found this hard to do in metal or wood. In the end I used several sheets of cardboard cut through with a knife and laminated for strength. I'm sure there are better ways though.

Apollo

bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:23 pm

I might have to wait on the d connectors as Rapid have sold out of the socket/plug (which one I can't remember)

I am trying to work out how many socket/plug/covers I am going to need - This is what I have come up with so far

- Each toggle switch has three connectors, two wires on each switch leaving the CP for the PM on the underside of the layout - 12 toggle switches = 24 wires
- Each PM needs NEG which can re-enter CP on a common return/feed - so an additional wire will need to re-enter the CP

- a total of 28 LED's (15 at most lit at any one time) each requiring a singular connection to the PM (with the exception of two which will be wired in series) - so 26 wires returning to the CP from the PM
- On the PM-1's there are six solder tabs - three for the operation of the PM, and three for the operation of the accessory switch? - two for the LED's and one for 12v DC POS+ PSU?? If so, then there will be a further single wire coming from CP onto the layout for the POS+ from the 12v DC PSU. IF so then 12v DC NEG can then stay enclosed in the CP as it will be wired from the NEG side of the LED to the NEG of the PSU.

Am I right in thinking there will be a total of 52 wires for connection to D connectors or am I missing some cabling? I am going to purchased 4 of the 15 point plug and sockets as Rapid have sold out of the 25 point variety, which, as Apollo has mentioned, leaves additional space should it be required.

bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:09 pm

ORDER HAS BEEN PLACED!!!

Thank you to both Flashbang and UK_Apollo for all the help you guys have given in the last few days - Without the help and advice, I probably would have bought the wrong things to set up the control panel of mine.

I ended up buying the 9v 300mah AC/DC PSU from Rapid based on what UK_Apollo has said about his own layout and CP. I'm hoping all the bits turn up by the weekend so I can get cracking on this hefty project. I may be back for more advice and assistance in the near future, but thank you once again! :D

bluechang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:51 pm

Flashbang wrote:
Mimic track plan with the points can be easily made by using self adhesive car lining tape (pin stripe tape). I have used the 2.0mm or 2.5mm wide versions in various colours successfully.



Last question on things to buy - regarding the above, is this the car lining tape you are talking about?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Body-Shell-Maskin ... 1897wt_911

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Flashbang
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Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby Flashbang » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:39 am

Hi
I think thats Masking tape?
This is an example of the Pin Stripe I was meaning (this one is 3.0mm wide which would be ok too) .... Pin Stripe Car lining tape
Or on ebay here...Pin Stripe tape on ebay (Not the first one which are shoes!) :D
[Image << Click the Icon to go to my website
Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

bluechang
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Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:51 pm

Re: Point Motors, CDU, SPDT + push to make switches - questions

Postby bluechang » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:53 am

Flashbang wrote:Hi
I think thats Masking tape?
This is an example of the Pin Stripe I was meaning (this one is 3.0mm wide which would be ok too) .... Pin Stripe Car lining tape
Or on ebay here...Pin Stripe tape on ebay (Not the first one which are shoes!) :D



I linked to the wrong one- I had a few different links open that came up when I searched for car lining tape!!

I ordered one of the ones on ebay (not the shoes! - they are horrible, but the wife thinks they are nice) I ordered the black 3mm pinstripe tape for the top.

Thanks again Flashbang


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