Isolating switch wiring

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Mighty
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Isolating switch wiring

Postby Mighty » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:54 pm

This must be incredibly simple, but I can't seem to work this out.

I have a Hornby DC controller, with an AC output for accessories, and an output to wire to the track. I have also purchased the Peco 'easy wiring' slot controllers, a pic of which is attached below.

Image

I also have a CDU bought from Peco, which looks like this:
Image

I have an insulating rail joiner between two bits of track. I have soldered a wire which goes from one side of the track without the IRJ to the track, and taken it to the controller to (what I assume is) the negative hole. The other side of the track with the IRJ, I have soldered two wires either side of the IRJ, one going straight to the controller into the (positive?) hole, the wire on the other side of the IRJ goes to the switch console, going into the top hole, and then a separate wire going out of the bottom hole of the switch unit back down to the controller to join up with the positive hole.

I have also wired up the CDU from the switch unit, so that it goes - switch unit to CDU to AC output. The only problem is, none of this works. Help! Any explanations would be extremely useful, as I've spent several hours trying to get this right without success.

Image
Image
"We've shot off over a million cannon shells, and what's the result? One dachschund with a slight limp." - Blackadder

My layout thread: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20737

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Roger (RJ)
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby Roger (RJ) » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:30 pm

I can't quite understand what you are trying to do. A CDU is used to give a good pulse of power to a points motor, its input being AC (usually) and the DC pulse output going to the point motor common wire and the point motor operating switches, so I can't see what the use of the IRJ is in your setup and you make no mention of point motors.

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Mighty
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby Mighty » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:15 pm

Apologies - as you'll see from the rack of switches, 5 are isolating switches, and 3 are point motors. Therefore I thought I needed the CDU for the point motors...

I assumed, possibly wrongly, that you could simply slot isolating switches and point motor switches into the same point console unit and wire it up from there.
"We've shot off over a million cannon shells, and what's the result? One dachschund with a slight limp." - Blackadder

My layout thread: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20737

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Flashbang
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby Flashbang » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:20 pm

Hi
Point motors use the Peco PL26 passing contact lever (fitted into the easy wire frame if wished)
Each switch and point motor are wired like this....
Note; the wire insulation colours are my own and may not be exactly the same colours as you have used, this doesn't matter so long as each wire is installed as per drawing.

Image


As for isolating sections, use a Peco PL22 On/Off switch (not a passing contact type) to link the insulated gap. But following information from smallman28 the Easy wire base links all switches fitted into the base, so these bases are not really suitable for isolating switches, as each Isolating switch needs a separate pair of wires, which are not connected to the next isolating switch!
Many thanks to smallman28 for the information :D

Image

Edit to correct diagrams and text.
Last edited by Flashbang on Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
[Image << Click the Icon to go to my website
Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

smallman28
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby smallman28 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:27 pm

Flashbang,I think the block arrangement of switches allows for just one power connection to the block.
So the only wires that go to the switches are the 3 point motor wires,each one doesn't directly need a feed from the CDU.

http://www.railway-models.co.uk/767_1_105781300.html

I think one problem is the way that 2 different types of switches have been grouped together,there are isolating switches mixed in with passing contact ones both in theory using two different voltages and power types.

First off seperate the banks of switches into two.
You need the point switches to be on their own not connected to any other switches.
If you look at the picture in the link it kind of explains it all!
The 16V AC output from the controller goes into the input side of the CDU (doesn't really matter which way around) the output from the CDU is the blue and yellow wires shown in the link going into the block of switches.
On the front of each switches are three ports for the cables from the points to go into,again shown in the pic.
You need to treat the isolating switches as a seperate thing to the point switches and not just join them all together like you have.
Also the "block" connection method is only intended for the PL26 passing contact switch NOT the on/off blue type switches you have.

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Flashbang
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby Flashbang » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:51 pm

Cheers for the link. Most useful :D
[Image << Click the Icon to go to my website
Broken? It was working correctly when I left it.

smallman28
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby smallman28 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:00 pm

Flashbang wrote:Cheers for the link. Most useful :D


Thats okay,kind of makes it self-explanatory :mrgreen:

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Mighty
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby Mighty » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:22 pm

Groans! Thanks for the info guys. As I understand it, I can put the 3 point motor switches in one unit, and then I need to wire up each on-off switch for each isolating switch separately and not in the block of connectors? I'll need some mounting plates separately then - oh well...

I wish they told you that in clear and easy to understand English. The number of times I read all of this and thought I had it right.

Thanks very much both of you, and I'll try again over the next week.
"We've shot off over a million cannon shells, and what's the result? One dachschund with a slight limp." - Blackadder

My layout thread: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20737

smallman28
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby smallman28 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:24 pm

Mighty wrote:Groans! Thanks for the info guys. As I understand it, I can put the 3 point motor switches in one unit, and then I need to wire up each on-off switch for each isolating switch separately and not in the block of connectors? I'll need some mounting plates separately then - oh well...

I wish they told you that in clear and easy to understand English. The number of times I read all of this and thought I had it right.

Thanks very much both of you, and I'll try again over the next week.


You got it.
The 3 point motors can use the block arrangement.
The isolating switches cant :evil:
Is you get a Peco PL27 that will house the isolating switches you have

http://www.railway-models.co.uk/767_1_1038716.html

locoworks
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby locoworks » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:44 pm

smallman28 wrote:
Mighty wrote:Groans! Thanks for the info guys. As I understand it, I can put the 3 point motor switches in one unit, and then I need to wire up each on-off switch for each isolating switch separately and not in the block of connectors? I'll need some mounting plates separately then - oh well...

I wish they told you that in clear and easy to understand English. The number of times I read all of this and thought I had it right.

Thanks very much both of you, and I'll try again over the next week.


You got it.
The 3 point motors can use the block arrangement.
The isolating switches cant :evil:
Is you get a Peco PL27 that will house the isolating switches you have

http://www.railway-models.co.uk/767_1_1038716.html



why can't the isolating switches use the block too? surely they can be wired common return as discussed elsewhere in these forums?? i'm not seeing a problem, other than understanding common return wiring? any links to the switch design anywhere?? the only snag i can see, just like the hornby switches, is the design tries to send the point the way it already is BEFORE it tries to change its possition. so if you just throw the switch, the CDU won't have time to recharge properly after already firing once to keep the point where it is. with the hornby switches it is best to hold the lever central for a second to let any CDU recharge again before actually trying to throw the point proper.

edit; just had a look at piccys and it doesn't even look like the switches are forced to share a plug together connection like the hornby ones??
Last edited by locoworks on Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smallman28
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby smallman28 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:51 pm

locoworks wrote:
smallman28 wrote:
Mighty wrote:Groans! Thanks for the info guys. As I understand it, I can put the 3 point motor switches in one unit, and then I need to wire up each on-off switch for each isolating switch separately and not in the block of connectors? I'll need some mounting plates separately then - oh well...

I wish they told you that in clear and easy to understand English. The number of times I read all of this and thought I had it right.

Thanks very much both of you, and I'll try again over the next week.


You got it.
The 3 point motors can use the block arrangement.
The isolating switches cant :evil:
Is you get a Peco PL27 that will house the isolating switches you have

http://www.railway-models.co.uk/767_1_1038716.html



why can't the isolating switches use the block too? surely they can be wired common return as discussed elsewhere in these forums?? i'm not seeing a problem, other than understanding common return wiring? any links to the switch design anywhere?? the only snag i can see, just like the hornby switches, is the design tries to send the point the way it already is BEFORE it tries to change its possition. so if you just throw the switch, the CDU won't have time to recharge properly after already firing once to keep the point where it is. with the hornby switches it is best to hold the lever central for a second to let any CDU recharge again before actually trying to throw the point proper.


All I would say is the link mentions the PL26 switch types and nothing else.
The way I see it is there is power to somewhere on the block so when you plug in one of the on/off switches could it not have power to it when in fact you dont want power?
And given there is only one power feed into the block that has to be either 16V AC or 12V DC and not both at once I just dont see it,but I could be wrong.

locoworks
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby locoworks » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:56 pm

wired common return you can have AC and DC on one wire at the same time. the block looks plastic? and it keeps the switches seperated by a few mm so i'm not seeing an issue. i have also seen pictures on old hornby track plan covers of all 3 colour switches they do in one long bank so i doubt there is a wiring issue?? but i may be confusing the grey block pictured with the brown/black 6 switch holder that came out the same time as the newer switch design.

smallman28
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby smallman28 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:59 pm

locoworks wrote:wired common return you can have AC and DC on one wire at the same time. the block looks plastic? and it keeps the switches seperated by a few mm so i'm not seeing an issue. i have also seen pictures on old hornby track plan covers of all 3 colour switches they do in one long bank so i doubt there is a wiring issue?? but i may be confusing the grey block pictured with the brown/black 6 switch holder that came out the same time as the newer switch design.


I know what you are saying all I would say is I am not sure but to me it looks like they are for the PL26 type and thats all.
I am sure the OP will try it and I hope it works for him as it might have been a bit of a waste otherwise.
I am not saying he cant use the on/off switches in the blocks but maybe it might be better to have them in a separate block and not connected to the point ones?

locoworks
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby locoworks » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:12 pm

smallman28 wrote:
locoworks wrote:wired common return you can have AC and DC on one wire at the same time. the block looks plastic? and it keeps the switches seperated by a few mm so i'm not seeing an issue. i have also seen pictures on old hornby track plan covers of all 3 colour switches they do in one long bank so i doubt there is a wiring issue?? but i may be confusing the grey block pictured with the brown/black 6 switch holder that came out the same time as the newer switch design.


I know what you are saying all I would say is I am not sure but to me it looks like they are for the PL26 type and thats all.
I am sure the OP will try it and I hope it works for him as it might have been a bit of a waste otherwise.
I am not saying he cant use the on/off switches in the blocks but maybe it might be better to have them in a separate block and not connected to the point ones?


having now been bothered to have a google :roll: http://www.gascupboard.co.uk/turnout-po ... -5196.html i see that the grey quick connect system does indeed feed power between TWO of the connections, and is not designed to mix switch types, it may not be possible to wire anything common return using these quick connect type switch holders. so i would go for the basic six switch holder and put switches where i want. it is handy to have isolators next to the point switch that is relevent to them. sorry for confusing the issue, note to self, RTFM.... :wink:

smallman28
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Re: Isolating switch wiring

Postby smallman28 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:25 pm

So it appears you can use other switch types in the block arrangement BUT the switches MUST be of the same type.
So a block of PL26 switches a block of PL22 switches etc etc,just dont mix switch types.


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