2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Have any questions or tips and advice on how to build those bits that don't come ready made.
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mattmay05
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2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby mattmay05 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:31 pm

SE Finecast Kit Build
LNER, W1, Hush Hush


Image

I am a bit out of practice writing up my builds as I haven't done any for quite a while, due to building and repairing other peoples kits and RTR locos, and finding a job hopefully...

Anyway, I sold off one of my old kits a few months ago, and decided to use the funds to build a kit I have had my eye on for a while as I have an interest in un-usual prototypes... or loco's that were sadly never built.

So, I placed an order with Dave at SEF for an LNER Hush-Hush or W1 as the chassis is similar to an A4 or A3 of which I have one of each lying around for projects which I never got round, the wheel spacing is correct for the W1, and the kit comes with an etched chassis for A3 / A4 loco's. But due to money I will use what I have or is best suited and modify to what I require.
I will need to modify the rear end of the chassis to allow the bogie on the rear, having measurements from the 2P bogie which has pickups that has the same wheel spacing for the rear bogie, I will replace the wheels with Alan Gibson wheels which I have yet to order.

I have also purchased a set of 4mm drawings for the W1 from Isinglass drawings to check what I am building is correct as there is word that the tender is incorrect for the hush hush what comes with this kit.

So the general bill for this kit:
Hush-Hush: £100
Chassis: £35
bogie: £10
Wheels: £12

I usually don't enter a competition unless there is something I can learn in terms of skills.. I have always wanted to solder white metal kits, I have done brass kits with no problems, but white metal is tricky especially if you can't afford the temperature controlled iron, which I don't have. After watching a video on YouTube presented by Tony Wright on loco kit building which included white metal soldering, I felt a bit better at attempting it.

I will use my 25W Antex iron, which is hotter than needed, but I shall have to see if I can get away with it, I purchased some low melt 70 degree solder from eBay which is required for white metal.

I also endeavour to improve on some areas of the kit, when I get in to building, I have some ideas already, and also I have some other ideas, if I can afford them or not, we will see.
Last edited by mattmay05 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 2017 Competition: A bit Hush Hush at the moment

Postby GWR_fan » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:05 pm

Rhetorical question - is it a 4-6-4?

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Re: 2017 Competition: A bit Hush Hush at the moment

Postby nickbrad » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:37 pm

Ooh, white metal soldering, another skill I can hopefully learn from following your example :)

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Re: 2017 Competition: A bit Hush Hush at the moment

Postby mattmay05 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:20 pm

GWR_fan wrote:Rhetorical question - is it a 4-6-4?


You never know.. could even be a GWR Atlantic... you never know haha.

nickbrad wrote:Ooh, white metal soldering, another skill I can hopefully learn from following your example :)


Well let's hope I don't put a hole through it by heating it too much haha wouldn't be worth following my example then... lol But its gone quite well on some test pieces and trying it out on an O2 model soldering brass and white metal, so quite confident with it. Anyway I will post something in the next day or so, by editing the first post.

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby mattmay05 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:50 pm

Updated. :D

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby Atso » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:32 am

Good luck with the build - this was going to be my choice for the competition as well (only in N gauge). I'm now on the lookout for something else to do with a Farish A1 chassis! :twisted: :lol: :lol: Whatever I decide, it'll have to fit in with my LNER 1930's themed layout...

It looks like you're going to have a lot of fun with this one. I'm looking forward to seeing how you get on with soldering white metal, something I've never tried but am very interested in learning. I was lucky enough to finally meet and have a chat with Tony Wright at the NEC, I found him a most pleasant and illuminating individual and hope that I am able to catch up with him again in the New Year.

I believe (although don't take my word as gospel on this) that while commonly referred to as a 4-6-4 the W1 should be more correctly referred to as a 4-6-2-2 due to the carrying trucks not being a bogie; I believe that this is actually a cartazzi truck with some form of pony behind it. As I said I'm not sure but seem to recalled reading about this somewhere.

Are you going to use the kit chassis or bash a donor locomotive to fit the body?

Anyway, I look forward to seeing how this progresses over the next month or so! 8)
Steve

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby glencairn » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:05 am

Atso wrote:.

I believe (although don't take my word as gospel on this) that while commonly referred to as a 4-6-4 the W1 should be more correctly referred to as a 4-6-2-2 due to the carrying trucks not being a bogie; I believe that this is actually a cartazzi truck with some form of pony behind it. As I said I'm not sure but seem to recalled reading about this somewhere.


On the following website - http://www.lner.info/locos/W/w1.php- it states ---

Technically, the rear bogie was partially articulated, with the first axle in an A1-style trailing axle but with restricted movement, and the rear axle was a true pony truck. Hence, many claim the W1 was technically a 4-6-2-2, rather than a Hudson (Baltic) 4-6-4. However, officially it was initially referred to as 4-6-4HP, although later drawings describe it as just "No. 10000" or "Class W1".

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby b308 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:28 am

I wouldn't use a 25w iron in standard form on whitemetal, Matty, a quick touch will produce a nice hole! There are ways of reducing the heat, see this RMWeb thread:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... ite-metal/

http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/a ... ering/3596

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby mattmay05 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:19 pm

I have seen N gauge ones someone used to make them... not sure who, but quite a few came up when I was doing research.

It was a nice surprise when I was reading through the instructions that the Finecast kit, uses an A3/ A4 etch... so the idea of saving me some cash and using this spare A3 chassis will work quite well. And will be dcc ready hehe.
Was quite surprised also to find the kit is approximately 3mm short compared with the drawings I have.

Sadly never met Tony Wright, probably never will being a bit far south and not being able to afford to travel to any shows at the moment. But always found his instruction videos a big help, I learn better through watching and seeing how it's done rather than reading. Then having a go and seeing if I make a **** up lol But yes very knowledgeable guy I know some of my fellow club members went up to his to play trains on his layout... the lucky devils. Also aware that he's been teaching this young lad how too make kits... good to know the skills are being passed along.

Oddly I have never ever seen or read about it being referred to as a 4-6-2-2, always a 4-6-2, but I can see what you mean on the drawings and would understand it being referred to as a 4-6-2-2.

b308 wrote:I wouldn't use a 25w iron in standard form on whitemetal, Matty, a quick touch will produce a nice hole! There are ways of reducing the heat, see this RMWeb thread:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... ite-metal/

http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/a ... ering/3596


Already have ;) More of a Kenton kind of guy. plus having no cash certainly helps you have a good technique.

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby mattmay05 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:42 pm

I suppose I better show some progress... mainly to show a 25 Watt iron doesn't make a hole ;) if you know what your doing.

Before starting the kit I had a few test runs with other white metal kits, some white metal On30 wagons for a customer which needed repairs, which were my second test which went well, I firstly attempted some work on an O2 model which I have been working on for sometime, I attempted to solder some brass wire on to the westinghouse pump, following some instructions I had read, this also went very well.

So after a couple of test runs all went well, and gaining some control with it, and experience and how to work with the solder. I read through the instructions for the W1 prior to starting as I expected due to the nature of the shape there was a very specific way of building it, Soldering the 2 internal supports for the main and smaller safety valves, then the main body sides, just tacking the 2 pieces together while positioning.
This allowed some movement in the sides to get the sides in the right position for the front of the model, which was tacked in place, this then helped support the 2 sides, while they were permanently soldered together, then moving on to the front panel which was also soldered in position. Following the instructions and the order of when to solder what part certainly does aid the speed of the build, the body shell and cab going together very well and easily. I left the sub frame as I call it, or the front end loose to add small parts and detail like hand rails and lubrication pipe work ect. at a later date.

Image
(A dry test fit, running plate not soldered just loosely fitted, valve gear yet to be changed)

I test fitted the body to the chassis, and I shortened the front of the chassis allowing the body to fit, I also checked the body against the 4mm drawing of the Hush Hush and found Finecast's body to be 3mm sort at the front (Mainly the running plate) end which was surprising, although I am sure most kits do have some errors in them, sadly not having any suitable metal to add in to extend the front by 3mm, so for now I will have to leave it as it is, which will mean there isn't such a big over hang of the front bogie. You can see what I mean on the image below.

Image
(Model overlaid on drawings showing a 3mm difference)

(Progress is approximately 2 weeks old)

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby Atso » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:04 am

Hi Matt,

The W1 is looking good and I've always loved how you can see the design progression in the front end of the locomotive compared to the later P2s (2001/2). In addition, it's great to see that you are mastering a new skill so well.

Regarding the 3mm discrepancy: Don't assume that the model is out in it's dimensions. This has been a subject of much discussion over on another forum recently and it might well be that the drawings are out. This is not to criticise the late John Edgson in any way but rather to highlight that paper is not the best medium to scale from as it can stretch and/or shrink. Also, John apparently drew all of his drawings to 4mm scale and not in 7mm or 10mm (or larger) as apparently many other people did at the time - again this is not to criticise as I believe that the Isinglass drawings are an excellent source and exclusively use these for all my LNER models but backed up with published known dimensions.

However, countering this, white metal shrinks when it is cooling and, having been reading up on the subject, this is as much an art as it is a science to control (both in guesstimating the size of the master and general conditions to offset this). The before mentioned Mr Wright seems to think very highly of Finecast kits as well as Isinglass drawings so I think either way (even without modifications), you're going to be onto a winner here!

The Isinglass drawings should prove you with the correct scale dimensions in one of the plan views. Personally, I'd calculate the scale length from this and then measure the model. Whenever possible, this is how I'd design anything CAD as one of my early attempts would not match the drawings at all - in the end I took some calipers to the print and discovered that, while the listed dimensions on the drawing matched the model, the drawings themselves were out slightly.
Steve

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby mattmay05 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:52 pm

Well I know it's not best to assume the model is out or even the drawings, I also did take the precaution of buying a copy of the actual drawings from the NRM, and then scaled it down, which also came out at around 2.6mm longer than the model. I always double check research to make sure it's reasonably correct.

So I think on this occasion it is the model, I did check it before soldering it on, so it hasn't shrunk lol but I assume your speaking of he casting process, where it does shrink, bit like resin I suppose. But anyway the rest of the model is right and fits ok, I only took the overlay image last night as I noticed I was missing the photo, but either way, a bit of a shame but I'm sure it will look ok.

Any how I will post some more stuff soon, but for now I have to fix a customers broken crank pin :)

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby mattmay05 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:52 pm

Before I could solder on the running plate I needed to add some extra detail... well needed more rather I wanted to. Firstly at the front end, supplied with the kit the handrails at the front of the model were cast white metal and I doubt they would of lasted (probably hence the number of spares) I changed this to 0.8mm brass wire and soldered a hand rail knob to the top which looked a bit more sturdy and a bit more quality.

Secondly and I am not sure why, but my brain had the great idea of making an opening front smoke box or screens as they were called on the plans, when the Hush Hush was first built had a first door, (screen) where a slot below collecting cool air, which the actual smoke box door behind that. Also I feel that it will look better than a big white metal casting. Using some 0.5mm brass rod, to use it as a hinge on not only the loco but the door or screen to. Using some brass sheet bent over at the back to hang the screen or door on.

ImageImage


On the running plate, and underside of the boiler casting. On the running plate there are 2 lubricators one on each side, on the left side there is 4 / 5 pipes which I tend to model with brass wire, using photos and looking at others models. I firstly mark and drill holes in the location using photos as a guide, 3x behind the lubricator, 1x directly behind the apparatus on the running plate and one in the side of the frame under the boiler.
The brass 0.45mm wire was soldered in at the running plate end. and were shaped to reach the holes on the underside edge of the boiler. The wire was tacked together with solder till the running plate was soldered to the boiler barrel.

Image

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby alex3410 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:04 pm

Its fascinating following your progress, especially with the detail sections, i am looking forward to seeing the final product.

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Re: 2017 Competition: LNER, W1, Hush-Hush (With extras)

Postby mattmay05 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:00 pm

Thanks Alex, just used the last of my cash to buy some sprung buffers, rather than the cast version, hopefully I will get some cash in by end of January to carry on and buy some wheels for the bogies.

:) Anyway shall see how it goes :) but most of the major bits are done.


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