3D Printing: Coach tops, LCDR / SECR

Have any questions or tips and advice on how to build those bits that don't come ready made.
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mattmay05
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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby mattmay05 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:22 am

Thank you Tim, it certainly has been a challenge, the research part was a lot easier, my general knowledge on 3D design is limited which has caused most of the problems as well as understanding the limitations of materials, and the design to make it work, I am understanding it a bit more, and hopefully the next coach with improvements will go off next week, hoping to get that back end of September, all depends on the chassis.

Having had the first print i can have a play and see what else is needed, to make them easier to build.. but I think its pretty close to being where it needs to be now.

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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby mattmay05 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:17 pm

I have attempted another print which I received yesterday, sadly more problems have arisen, despite not touching various bits on one of the models... The bogies and roof vents are ok though so have made those available, on via Shapeways.

The coach body still having problems with the sides, and one end, which are coming out very rough, I expected some printing lines on the rounded surfaces, but these are all down the sides, very serrated rough print lines... so I'm lost on that.... until a solution is found. I don't see any more progress on this one sadly.

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Pete
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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby Pete » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:56 pm

Matt

Interesting stuff.

Could I ask a few questions:

When you get your prints back from Shapeways, do they offer any comment on the finish, or is it a case of them just printing what you send them and that's it.

Who makes the desicion as to in what orientation they are printed, i.e roof up, or down, carriage on it's side etc.?

What CAD or rendering package are you using now?

Without prying into what you're paying, but would you consider this work expensive?


Thanks. and good luck as you progress, I'm sure you'll crack the problem soon.

Pete
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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby mattmay05 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:03 pm

Pete

I generally only get a comment when I report something, they have people checking before packing, problem I guess as you can see its a clear material, you can't see the problem unless you actually touch or feel the surface. When you send you STL file they check it... even though they missed something on another model, to check its ok for printing, then that goes to the printers, then cleaned, checked and shipped.

I guess the orientation of the model is down to shapeways as its not just 1 item on the tray its many items.

CAD program is still the same as originally posted.

Even with the changes to make these cheaper it will still coast around £100 per coach. Due to this I will not be continuing with these.

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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby Pete » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:31 pm

Thanks Matt

Could I ask one further question: when you do crack the printing are you considering 3D printing as the technique to make your 'production' versions, or would you use the 3D prints as patterns for resin casting?

I guess you have to try and recover your development costs in your final selling price.

Really interesting stuff, please keep posting your experiences (I'm assuming you'll you continue).

Pete
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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby mattmay05 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:46 pm

Pete

Yes Indeed I have looked in to resin casting, if someone wants to take it on. I believe it will probably be cheaper doing it this way with the price per coach being about £100 in printing costs.

I'm afraid I will probably not be posting anything further as the money has gone for this project, having spent close to £400 on it and sadly I have other things to be spending money on, I will either sell off the designs and research for someone else to complete, or it will stay with me and not be released.

At the beginning as I mentioned I'm not a 3D expert, in fact I hate computer aided design, I was 1 person or a group who were doing this, after around 50 people were noted as interested, we started work sadly everybody left me to it. I was only supposed to be doing research... that's it.

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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby Pete » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:34 pm

Matt

I appreciate your frustration, might be worth putting it to one side for a bit and coming back to it in the future, 3D printing costs are dropping all the time too.

I think I posted some time ago that for all your self doubt as to abilities with CAD etc you've still managed to produce something pretty impressive.

Thanks for the info and good luck!

Pete
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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby mattmay05 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:39 pm

Pete

originally yes drawn by me but they didn't work so had to be re-drawn by another source... there for costing more money, which I suspect is what the coach body needs. But yea it will cost a lot more now to redo a lot of it.
But yeah sadly time to leave it alone, and not to come back to it... life takes priority at the moment.

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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby mattmay05 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:57 pm

GN Saloon - 1st prototype print.

Last week as part of a bit of research for the Metropolitan coaches which are in re-designing at the moment due to the change in material. I have been working away on the GN Saloon which I announced I was working on back in August. After a few revisions and changes to various areas including details and thickness, I went ahead and test printed the chassis and body.

Here are the results:
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As you can see the results are promising, after this print more changes have been made ready for it to be tested again and if all goes well shall be put on general sale once I have finish one, to show as a guide for the others who may purchase one. This project will be made available to fund the Met coaches.

Why change print material?
On the Met's I experienced some problems with Print lines with the Frosted Detail, as well as some warping. It also proved very fragile, and not only that rather expensive. The White Strong and Flexible material is laser sintered nylon plastic, it's about half the price of frosted detail... its durable, reasonably heavy, it does have the properties of plastic with a slightly rough surface texture... but this reduces once paint is applied due to it being absorbed.
The print quality / resolution has been found to be quite good, with no noticeable print lines, apart from the roof which is no problem really.

The idea of using RTR spares, such as Bogie wheel sets, couplings systems ect... is to enable the coach to run well and reliably.
Some kit skill's will be needed to finish the coach.

Price will be around £50. It sounds expensive... but then again this is a specialist area of 3D printing a coach... but there is no kits of this coach in OO, and if there were, you would still would to have put it together or have the equipment to... even then the kit could cost more than £50.

Anyway that's all for now, now to get ready for test print 2.

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skyblue
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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby skyblue » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:55 pm

How strong/robust are these coaches? Would they be tougher than say a standard plastic kit? Also, how do you go about preparing them to be painted - presumably they require some sanding down?

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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby mattmay05 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:14 pm

I will do a write up when the final version has arrived. Painting is not much different to normal.
They are robust that's why the decision to change material was made as mentioned above, as you can drill this material without the worry of it breaking, or cracking. It's not called White strong and flexible for nothing.
No sanding or you loose the detail.

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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby Essex2Visuvesi » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:36 pm

you might find a light dusting something like Tamiya's surfacing spray might help with the finish prior to painting
http://www.wonderlandmodels.com/product ... ight-grey/

I have to say I admire your work..... My father in law and I bought one of the Thing'o'matics last year and really couldn't get the hang of it. The print quality was pretty hopeless and the failure rate was very high. Even test printing the demo pieces from the manufacturers website didn't go well, so I understand your pain
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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby Lysander » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:15 pm

Really impressive Matt.

Tony
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mattmay05
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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby mattmay05 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:43 pm

Thanks for the comments.

Essex2Visuvesi
Yes I've been trying out some Halfords primer which has been quite good on other printed models, there are still some unknowns, as the material absorbs the paint which also reduces the slightly rough texture, saying that the prints with the Nylon have got much better recently in terms of resolution and quality. I've been receiving some hints and tips from a fellow 3D modeller who's used this material to do Irish rolling stock, which inspired me to change to this material.

As the one pictured here won't be finished, as it's just a test piece really to show it's possible and what else needs working on.

Yes sadly Home 3D printers... are not quite there with quality, using PLA / ABS, some are better than others all depends on how much you spend. Quite a few are getting some super results with a machine called a B9 Creator, which uses light sensitive resins... quality of prints I've seen in 2mm scale are outstanding... sadly not big enough for OO but certainly something to watch.

And thank you Tony, Within half hour of posting this round, the LNER forum have picked up on it.... didn't take them long...

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Re: 3D Printing –Met Chesham Coaches, 4mm/OO, GN Saloon.

Postby mattmay05 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:03 pm

I have received a second test print, Sadly due to Shapeways rush to get everything printed before the last pasting dates a number of areas had errors, due to their lack of attention on checking models before printing.
But despite being damaged I was able to get an idea of how the improvements / revisions came out....
The toplight detail was missing on the first print, so this area was reworked, making the walls slightly thicker and making the detail stand out more by reducing wall depth behind the detail which brought it out at 0.3mm you can now see it's quite visible.

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I have also test loose fitted some of the roof vents on the top lights which seem to fit ok now, you still may need to enlarge the hole, to accommodate other roof vent suppliers.

Other small improvements were to the interior doors have been made thicker so less likely to break off, coach ends have been made thicker again this helps the detail on the ends.
Around the doors, improvements have been made, you now have small indentations or locaters for drills, for fitting handrail knobs or hand rail wire, also a small dent in the door if you want to go the extra mile and fit Markits T-Door Handles, which I will be.

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On the chassis, small changes, have made it possible to fit the Hornby coupling system you which you will find on most coaches. Another small tweak has been made to move the coupler forward by 0.6mm... but it works so that's good news.

Image


It will probably be a couple of weeks until Shapeways find an answer to the print error, with xmas and all that, once they find out, and hopefully a partial refund I will order a re-print. If all goes well I will hope to release it very soon.


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