having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Have any questions or tips and advice on how to build those bits that don't come ready made.
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sleeper
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having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby sleeper » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:37 pm

Hi everyone,
After getting my first ever project completed and therefor with more confidence I've now settled on the next one. I've done some research,saved and printed off some photos, put a few ideas down on paper,got some bits together
IMG_1086b.jpg
some of the bits I think I might use
IMG_1086b.jpg (71.2 KiB) Viewed 4243 times


I got the idea for this project while looking at posts on this forum, someone was explaining wheel arrangements and put up a picture that captured my imagination straight away. This is what I'm hoping to turn this pile of bits into
800px-Ffestioniog_Railway_Earl_of_Merioneth_at_Porthmadog.jpg
A Fairlie patent designed double loco operating on the Blaenau Ffestioniog light railway
800px-Ffestioniog_Railway_Earl_of_Merioneth_at_Porthmadog.jpg (103.87 KiB) Viewed 4243 times


So this will be a very different challenge to the last one, I hope I haven't taken on too much too early as I've had to give this quite a bit of thought already, but, nothing ventured nothing gained.
When I first saw a pic of this loco I immediately thought two 0-4-0 engines back to back, yeah simple, but after consideration it's not as simple as I first thought. My idea was to use two 0-4-0 chassis and a couple of bodies, a bit of plasticard for the sole plate and bob's yer uncle, for a start the bogies are articulated to cope with the tight curves on the BFR. Cutting up chassis to see if they fit can be costly so I thought I'd start with a temporary sole plate and see if the shunter chassis will work. I thought also of two Bo-Bo chassis, these would be made to articulate within a flat chassis frame and that may well be the way to go yet, I'll try the shunter chassis first.
One of the problems is trying to stay within reasonable boundaries of scale, I'm not saying this is a scale model, that would be impossible using RTR parts, I'll be happy if, like the last project, it bares a resemblance to the prototype. So, the size of the wheels, with the shunter the wheels are slightly on the large size, they are spoked, but have crank-pins to allow the use of connecting rods. If I use bogies from a Bo-Bo the wheels will be slightly undersized and will not have crank-pins, and I would have to remove the frame sides to expose the wheels. [Hmm Western Diesel]?
I could maybe get disc wheels of the correct size and pattern from Markits or a similar supplier but that would escalate the cost, so for now I'm going with RTR in whatever form that may take. Here's another pic to show what the prototype looks like
fairlie side on b.jpg
fairlie side on b.jpg (69.72 KiB) Viewed 4243 times


As you can see the wheels are solid disc with three holes similar to wagon/coach wheels. Anyway back to the story, I used a chassis I had kicking around [in the first pic] as a pattern and made a template from thin card which I used to line up the various parts and have a think. Again to keep to scale I really need to cut the body between cab and boiler and remove a section to get the dome nearer the cab but that makes another problem in that the motor frame clashes with the body, so duly noted I will for now keep it as it is. Over here in France they don't have plasticard like in the UK but I did find something similar except it's a lot softer and only available 2mm thick, but it'll serve as a template and as it's soft it can be cut easily if I have to make several versions.
IMG_1087.jpg
this one shows the length of chassis compared to one of the bodies
IMG_1087.jpg (58.24 KiB) Viewed 4243 times

IMG_1088.jpg
the cardboard trmplate used to compare measurements
IMG_1088.jpg (58.8 KiB) Viewed 4243 times


See the next post
Last edited by sleeper on Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sleeper
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby sleeper » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:46 pm

Sorry folks I reached the maximum quota of photos to upload
IMG_1089.jpg
This is the cardboard template
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IMG_1090.jpg
this is the plastic template fitted to the 0-4-0 chassis, still to be cut down, if I use it.
IMG_1090.jpg (43.48 KiB) Viewed 4242 times


That's as far as I've got for now, have to go and do the weekly shop so see ya later folks :) :)

Biscuits
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby Biscuits » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:45 pm

Looks a good and unique project - keep your eyes open for butter spread packaging etc as it's a good source of plasticard

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Bufferstop
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:39 pm

I suspect you will have some fun trying to find space for the motor to swivel within the body, it's already a tight fit. As a fall back can I suggest a Thomas/0-6-0 motor and worm paired with the gearwheel as used in the Tri-ang dock shunter/Blue Pullman and almost all motor bogies in the Tri-ang/Hornby period. The motor is narrow enough to fit between the frames between the two axles, allowing the "wings" to be cut down.
I'll definitely be watching to see how this one goes.
John W
aka Bufferstop.
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sleeper
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby sleeper » Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:20 pm

Hi everyone,
Thanks to Biscuits and Bufferstop for your replies,
Biscuits thanks for the tip.
I've just this morning slung a carton in the recycling bin, have now fished it out again, following a wash I'll experiment with which glue works. The lids are polypropylene I think as they're pliable so won't let the glue take.
John Bufferstop, You've got me in check.
I've had some doubts as to whether these 0-4-0 chassis will work, you've got a valid point there with regard to the clearances. I've looked through the Hornby service sheets and HSS139 deals with the R351'Thomas', R780 & R803 Diesel shunters using the X1846 motor, is this the one you're referring to? They have a different type of motor retaining assy and I wonder how this would be adapted to the 0-4-0 chassis I'm using. Because the meshing of the worm and gear have to be spot-on, I feel I may be getting into something I've no experience of yet. So, fingers crossed I can get some articulation of the drive bogie within the body I have.

Well I've done some more work on making the bogies, I cut the first chassis down in length and cut a piece of 2mm plasticard to fill in the back of the chassis, as these chassis are only a plastic channel section they are very flimsy once cut. I fashioned a support for the sole-plate and this was glued at a right angle to the new back plate, I made up an upstand with a piece at right angles and glued this in place so there was a 2mm + gap for the sole-plate to rest in to. At the front I made up an upstand out of 1mm [for flexibility] with a wedge shaped latch which would bend when pushed through and spring back and hold the bogie in place. see photo of chassis [items coloured blue]
IMG_1097.jpg
This shows the shortened chassis
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IMG_1106.jpg
side view with the bogie attached to the sole-plate, see the items coloured blue
IMG_1106.jpg (46.88 KiB) Viewed 4179 times

IMG_1105.jpg
top view to show how bogie will move within sole-plate. same setup as hornby diesel bogies
IMG_1105.jpg (56.27 KiB) Viewed 4179 times

As Bufferstop pointed out there won't be a lot of swing on the bogies and I doubt their ability to negotiate tight curves. I won't know 'til I try it out and then if it doesn't work I'll have to try something different.
That's as far as I've got at present apart from carving some bits from one of the bodies, buffer beams and buffers, steps, cylinders, etc, to give it a flat bottom to lay on the temporary sole-plate so that I can judge if anything fits.
So back to work, see ya later :)

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Bufferstop
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:20 pm

Hi the motor from Thomas/0-6-0s is the I think the smallest Hornby use. Either by good fortune or Hornby's use of a very limited range of gear pitches the wormgear used on the bogies has a matching pitch to the one on the Thomas motor. It's also a relatively small diameter so fits easily in place of the one that comes with the 0-4-0 chassis. Unfortunately I've used the last on I had but I have the number S2016 written on the bag they were in. It's a push fit on the 0-4-0 axle and the small motor is a snug fit in the bottom of the chassis, which might allow you to chop away bits that restrict movement. I'll have a dig in the spares sites and see if I can find the reference again.
John W
aka Bufferstop.

PS Just tracked it downhere. It's on sheet 12b and is part number S2016 22 tooth gear. As well as the dock shunter (R253 I think) it was used in various motor bogies including all of the Tri-ang Transcontinental range. I had 4 which came from a couple of dock shunters which I bashed, one into an updated version, scale wheels, LED lights wire handrails, slimline couplers et al, the other got a cut down 0-4-0 chassis with rods to look more like the Bagnall that its was loosely based upon. 'fraid I've used 'em all now.
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sleeper
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby sleeper » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:42 pm

Hi everyone,
John thanks very much for your advice and for taking the trouble of tracking down the service sheet info, if I run into problems with the clearance I'll try that as an alternative. At the moment I have to go through the motions and get the bogies fitted into the temporary base and try it out on some curved track to see if it runs ok without de-railing.
I've work on it today but have nothing to show for my labours, yesterday I started making the fixings for the second chassis/bogie and stuck the 'hook' in round the wrong way :roll: [the hook is in the above picture the blue one on the right] but prior to that I discovered I'd fitted the underframe support on top of the chassis [seen in the same photo under the base plate on the right hand side too] which made the bogie out of parallel with the underside of the base plate so that had to come out too, :roll: :roll: this left the hook 2mm too high, so I made another one 2mm shorter,but on looking again I decided that the shorter hook didn't have enough flexibility and I was frightened that having snapped the bogie into place I might not be able to free it should the need arise so I've left it as it is and made another for the other bogie. I'll put 2mm packers above the base plate for them to run on.
I now have both bogies made up ready to fit. I'm waiting for the arrival of some coupling rods for the trailing chassis and I can then re-fit the wheels.
I've removed all the molded detail from both bodies and cut out the footplate of one in the same shape as that in the temporary base plate as an experiment to see if I can keep the existing sole plate, which is part of the body, as I feel it would be much more rigid than a plasticard one. The two bodies could then be joined by gluing them at the rear buffer bar with a plasticard floor above to give the joint re-enforcement. Again, I will first have to try it with the plasticard base- plate to see how strong it will be.
So sorry there's no photos as there's nothing to show, soon though hopefully.
see ya later.

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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby sleeper » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:56 pm

Hi Everyone,
Well that was all a bit boring so now I've taken and edited some more photos we can move on. I've done some work on one of the bodies to look into the possibility of fitting the bogie into it and it is possible as this photo shows :-
IMG_1109.jpg
this shows the bogie and the modified body. A being the 'hook' end and B being the other 'fixed' sliding mounting point which can both be seen on the bogie below
IMG_1109.jpg (72.8 KiB) Viewed 4108 times

Point A is 1mm plasticard,fixed to a plasticard block attached to the inside of the body and is removable by unscrewing the black screw which is reached through a hole drilled in the bottom of the bogie, it can then be removed at any time should the need arise. The screw hole looks tatty in the photo because I was originally going to use a countersunk set screw and I tried to countersink the hole using a larger drill bit instead of going and getting the proper countersink bit., I changed my mind after and used a self tapper, as it has a courser thread and I thought it might hold better in the plastic block below.
As I said previously I've removed most of the molded detail, I've just taken delivery of two brass finished domes which could be mounted in the correct position nearer the cab, [more carving up of the bodies, will there be anything left of the originals]?
Here's a photo giving a broad impression of how the bodies will look.
IMG_1108.jpg
IMG_1108.jpg (62.2 KiB) Viewed 4108 times

I've cut the roof off one because the roofs have too much of a curve on them, the Fairlie roof has a much flatter profile with curves at the sides, there's still a lot of work to be done on the cab/cabs yet, hence the comment about carving above.
Just to bring some light relief here's a pic of some other things going on at the moment.
IMG_1110.jpg
IMG_1110.jpg (88.84 KiB) Viewed 4108 times

In front L-R an LMS saddle tank body from the donor of one of the chassis for this project, it had a broken chimney so I made a new one using a length of 16mm earth cable stripped back by 2mm at one end to form a spigot, this size cable fitted neatly into a drinking straw, the cap came from a broken princess body . I drilled a 3mm hole down where the existing chimney once was and secured the replacement with superglue, it is now awaiting painting. The wagon had a buckled roof and now has a new roof fashioned from 1mm plasticard and awaits paint, the tanker is a scratch build one, I used a hornby wagon base and added the framework, made from plasticard with the braces made from wire. The tank is 32mm waste pipe with the ends cut from an electrical socket blanking plate, the hatch is 20mm conduit, also ABS, stuck with UPVC solvent,it awaits painting. Above that are a couple of carriages, one a Mk3 intercity which had a piece broken out of the glazing, the repair is rough though, but I've never seen replacement glazing for these on sale anywhere. The other carriage is an old worn Triang blood and custard one which awaits painting with a new livery [SR or LMS]. In between there's also a corridor interior awaiting paint/detail, at each side the two roofs. Just visible is an old Princess Elizabeth body, resprayed LMS maroon to replace the damaged body on my Princess Royal,
it awaits decals [£££]? :shock:
In the box is the USA shunter now with it's enormous unsightly nem coupling sticking out the back and with it an Airfix kit built wagon whose roof is on the left with sprue attached ready for topcoat paint.
Well there we are Folks todays post.
See ya later.

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GeraldH
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby GeraldH » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:43 pm

This double 0-4-0 looks even more radical than my BNR projects :)

Good to see the old Triang coach getting a new lease of life. I have repaired, upgraded and reliveried quite a few over the years. It's a shame that there's no flush glazing for them. I did write to the manufacturer, but they thought there was no demand for it :(

I'm looking forward to seeing the results.
Gerald H - BNR Correspondent :)

My layout: http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Fo ... hp?t=28854

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Bufferstop
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:17 pm

Hi Gerald - I thought sleeper's bashes might catch your attention. Do we start a bashers section for those who can't resist the challenge of making something novel out of whatever we can find. Just wait and see what I did with the remnants of the 0-4-0 that gave its boiler/smokebox to the open cab 0-6-0 :P
John W
aka Bufferstop.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
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sleeper
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby sleeper » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:23 pm

Hi Everyone,
John, I followed the link to your layout, very interesting it is too,I got to learn a bit about you too.
Well I've done a bit more to this one, the trouble is it's all fiddly little bits and not a lot alters visibly. I gave some thought to the cab layout, from what I've seen in the photos the fireboxes run fore and aft of the cab, there are two fireboxes accessed from one side only of the cab, the driver occupies the other side. I made up a template to help when I come to work on the cab area.
IMG_1115.jpg
A template made from card with the angle of the sides of the firebox where it will butt against the existing firebox which juts out and lays back at an angle
IMG_1115.jpg (69.62 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

What you can see in the middle section is the top, this will be rounded over, the two end panels are the front and back of the firebox. I'll make up a better version when I need it, this ones just for trial and error and is only half of the whole firebox.
I had to blank the existing windows using 1mm plasticard, as I said everything is fiddly, the round window blanks are about 4mm in diameter the side windows are 2mm wide.In the next photo the windows in the yellow body have been blanked and new square windows opened out by drilling the 4 corners then a hole in the center filed out again with a triangular needle file. The roof profile on the yellow one has been lowered and is slightly flatter too.
IMG_1119.jpg
The two bodies with window alterations and the roof altered on the yellow body
IMG_1119.jpg (56.29 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

The two chimneys will need alteration and as I dont have any styrene rod I cut two pieces at 6mm wide and two at 2mm wide, I sandwiched the two narrow ones between the two 6mm's with a length of 2mm brass tube in between, all stuck with superglue. This have received the Bufferstop treatment I put them in the chuck of my battery drill and spun them up using sandpaper to round them off [aux Bufferstop]
IMG_1122.jpg
The made up blank ready for turning up
IMG_1122.jpg (48.5 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

I cut the domes off because these need re-positioning nearer the cab, the lord of the Isles ones I bought are too high and so I'm sticking with the originals'albeit 1mm shorter after being cut. I cut two discs and glued inside to blank the holes where the domes had been and filled the holes with the French version of plastic padding, it's named MERD and sticks like x*^t to a blanket.
IMG_1124.jpg
both bodies filled and rubbed down note the soleplate rounded off
IMG_1124.jpg (61.85 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

I put a radius on the edges of the tanks filled, rubbed down and refilled to get the top of the boiler smooth, at the same time I rounded off the sole plates, as is so on the prototype. Finally I cut the existing coal bunkers down and glued them to the top of the tanks on one side.
IMG_1127.JPG
The two bodies with the coal bunkers fitted
IMG_1127.JPG (54.34 KiB) Viewed 4022 times

The next job is to fix the two bodies together, back to back, work can then start on the cab detail and the floor needs to be dropped inside the cab and some re-enforcement to the joint between the two as this will be a weak spot.
So, as soon as that's done I'll post up some pictures.
See ya later.

Biscuits
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby Biscuits » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:42 pm

Nice one and certainly unique. I did wonder where they put the coal?

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sleeper
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby sleeper » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:19 pm

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the comment Biscuits, when I first started looking at this project, like you I couldn't work out where the coal was stored until I found more pictures on Wiki, I did wonder how they got the coal out of the bunker as the train was going along. :arrow: :arrow: I imagined the fireman leaning out with a long handled shovel trying to dig out a shovel full. :lol: only joking!
Well I did some more work on it today [this is taking over my life]! After glueing the two bodies together and fixing 0.5mm strips above and below the joint for re-inforcing. I made up the firebox, the curved top section I made from 0.5mm plasticard,I rolled it around a bit of 16mm copper tube and slid it inside a bit of 22mm copper tube, I put this in a saucepan with some water in, heated it and then cooled it, the plasticard went soft and conformed to the shape of the inside of the tube, once cooled it retained it's shape I then fixed this to the sides with some 1mm sections inside to support the top.
IMG_1129.jpg
IMG_1129.jpg (41.28 KiB) Viewed 3938 times

IMG_1128.jpg
IMG_1128.jpg (49.29 KiB) Viewed 3938 times

This was then fixed in place and the floor lowered by 4mm. It wasn't possible to lower the whole floor due to the articulating bogies.
These bogies have been a real pain and caused no end of agro and now things are starting to come together the degree of movement is getting less and less. I doubt it will ever be run on a layout because it's nowhere near true to scale, for a start it is 4mm scale in height but more like 6mm scale in length, the extra length being due to using the 0-4-0 chassis, I think now that it would have been better to have used the Bo Bo bogies. If anyone is going to copy this project you'd do well to give this point some serious consideration.
IMG_1130.jpg
This picture shows the firebox fitted and the floor lowered note the steps at the sides of the doorway and the length to height ratio
IMG_1130.jpg (49.57 KiB) Viewed 3938 times

I've fabricated the new side panels out of 1mm, scale wise they needed to be 2mm but looked too bulky in 2mm, an alternative would have been to make end panels from 1mm but although looking more the part I felt they would have been too flimsy so I went down the 2mm road.
IMG_1133.jpg
the side panels in place these need truing up a bit, the camera shows up all the faults
IMG_1133.jpg (54.45 KiB) Viewed 3938 times

I've been studying this last picture and realize I've made a cock-up with the height of the side panels they're nearly 6ft high!! :o I forgot to take the dropped floor in to account. Some freehand work with the scalpel required. Watch this space!
See ya later.
regards Roly.

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Bufferstop
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby Bufferstop » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:20 pm

Although they are now changing back to coal (one loco at a time) the ffestiniog locos have been oil fired for many years. It's going to be tough work for the fireman on the Fairlies as they have two fire doors facing the cabside opening and the operating space is narrower than the length of the shovel!
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buz
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Re: having a bash at remodeling, project 2

Postby buz » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:17 am

Hi sleeper
This project is not as mad as you think.
There was one standard gauge Fairlie that I know about built.
So its not beyond the bounds of reason there might have been another one.
regards John.
A model railway can be completed but it's never finished


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