Drive motor help

Have any questions or tips and advice on how to build those bits that don't come ready made.
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PaulTable
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Drive motor help

Postby PaulTable » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:56 pm

I hope I'm posting this in the correct section so please move if necessary.
Hi, I am a complete novice to the world of modern model railways, I know there is an awful lot to learn and catch up on but I do have a plan to create a shuttle line to my shelf layout and need some help with a problem.
I have a selection of Triang / Hornby engines etc. that have been in the loft for far too long and intend to cannibalise one of the for the drive unit for a shuttle I will scratch build which should look something along these lines.
8801_1042555_Qty1_1.jpg

Trying every engine I have on the track they upset the control electronics or fail to move at all, except this little shunter that performs remarkably well even down to 5 volts of battery power, 4 AA's ( the required speed) for my layout.

s-l1600.jpg

Inside this I find a motor that looks very much like this which looks total alien to any other motor in my collection
h.jpg


My question is to ask if this a "one off" or can this motor be found in other Hornby ( or other makes ) of engines I can purchase cheaply as I'd rather not destroy this shunter as it works so well.
Thank you.

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Mountain
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Re: Drive motor help

Postby Mountain » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:40 pm

Those little motors are also found in quite a few 0-4-0 steam locomotives by Hornby, along with Scalextric cars, though the gearing of the cars is different.
The little 0-4-0's from Triang days to now, are now on their third (Or fourth) motor design. The first design were the X03/X04 which looks similar inside to the old Triang power bogies, but the X03 and the identical X04 having their own case to hold them instead of the power bogie frame. These motors were easy to change brushes. The heavier metal chassis was used with coarse heavily made wheels with deep flanges.
The second change came in Triang/Hornby days where the heavier made 0-4-0's with the metal chassis now were made with a smaller motor just a tad larger then the one in the picture you showed. You could change brushes easily on this motor, though I've never worn them out as they last a long time! When these motors were fitted to the older Triang metal chassis, a plastic base was clipped to take up the room as the chassis was made to fit the previous motor.
Then in the Hornby days a new chassis design (Which your loco is a version of) for 0-4-0 locos which was designed to take this second motor. There have been quite a few differing styles of bodies from the GWR 101 types to the saddle tanks, to the continental locos (Which look more German) to the class 06's (Like yours) and another cheaply made steam loco design with side tanks. Some chassis had cylinders. Some didnt. It depended on which body the chassis was needed for. The class 06 had the chassis turned backwards. Also changed with this chassis design were the wheels which had normal depth flanges and were not coarse. They did make some chassis at one time with square axles but these didnt last long.
After a good few years of them being made like this, a cheaper motor arrived which is the design we have today. These are not designed to have brushes changed. They are slightly shorter then the motors tey replaced, hence the need for the plastic circular spacer to be added to the back of the motor.
The production was transferred to China around the time (Or was it just after) this motor change took place. The wheels were improved yet again being more precise and now the metal was chemically blackened.
Then later a further improvement was made and I dont know if there is a difference to the motor or if it has some sort of voltage reduction or if it is just the gearing used, but the newer locos to this design run slower then they used to... They no longer run at high speed when the controllers are set to full.
China also use flimsier pickups and while they may be flimsier, they do improve slow speed running, as they have a lighter springyness to them.
So the chassis used with your blue class 06 loco has been used on quite a few different body types, and if you want to collect one of every livery of the plastic type of chassis of 0-4-0 shunters that have been produced, you will have a collection well in excess of 100 locomotives, and that is not counting the earlier Triang metal chassis locomotives which shared one type of motor and also shared the same con rods as they had the same axle spacing. The axle width is slightly smaller thinner on the plastic chassis types.
Before I finish, it is not only Hornby locos that these chassis have been used for as many kits in various scales have also been made to run on these chassis, chiefly due to they are probably one of the most mass produced chassis of all model railway locos certainly in the UK, and they also are one of the cheapest locos to buy to use as a donor loco for the chassis, which makes perfect sense for a body kit to be used with. Most of Smallbrook Studio kits use these chassis for a few different scales, even to power trams in 7mm scale narrow gauge form.
I also add that locos with these chassis are the most popular choice for scratchbuilders to use as a donor locomotive for 7mm narrow gauge use.

If using such a chassis, the chief concern is to hide the mechanism. The most popular mechanism for such a railcar is a tenshodo spud, which are getting hard to find now. These are small 4 wheel motorised bogies available in various wheelbases and are good quality items. The mechanism is small enough to hide out of view and be mounted in a coach bogie if desired! Also similar are the "Black Beetle" motor bogies... I'm not sure if black beetles or the tenshodo spuds had a very long wheelbase that such a railcar may require.
To see a black beetle, look at the thread "Shall I swap scale/gauge to 0-16.5" on Pinknosepenguine's thread in the "Narrow Gauge Model Railways" section of this site.
Last edited by Mountain on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Mountain
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Re: Drive motor help

Postby Mountain » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:17 pm

You may find the older Triang locomotives need a controller which can supply an amp or an amp and a half of current. Modern trainset controllers tend to supply a third or even a quarter of an amp, which is fine with the little blue class 06 you have, but if you try it with an old Triang loco, you will either get little movement or the controllers overload cut out will come into play.

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Bufferstop
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Re: Drive motor help

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:23 pm

You will find that chassis and motor inside the majority of Hornby 0-4-0s, it's easier to say where you won't find it, that's the L&Y Pug, the Sentinel diesel and the Peckett saddle tank. Early versions of it could vary from acceptable to truly atrocious but later examples have shown a distinct improvement, the only changes I can see in it, are somewhat better mouldings of the nylon gears, and a slightly less ferocious spring retainer on the front end of the motor. The only part that can't be checked out is the sealed can motor, it's possible that there has been a change to the armature design, but if they are good runners no one is going to rip them open to find out.
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Mountain
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Re: Drive motor help

Postby Mountain » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:00 am

Those "Sealed" motors are actually quite easy to open up in most cases. I used to open 3Volt versions of them when I was a young kid. The reason why they call them sealed is the brushes are more like thin copper wheel pickups rather then brushes if they are the same as the other motors that look like this. (I've not opened the 12v version but the others I have). When the wiper type brushes wear out you can use wire or better still, make new wiper brushes. Go easy with your fingers if you ever open one of these motors up though.

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PaulTable
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Re: Drive motor help

Postby PaulTable » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:55 pm

WOW, thank you all for your prompt and concise replies, some real expert advice and pointers. just what I needed.
I'm off to visit a model rail show this weekend, now I know what to look for, hopefully I will find exactly what I need.
Many thanks to you all. I'll post up what I find ASAP.

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Mountain
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Re: Drive motor help

Postby Mountain » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:19 am

Can't say I'm an expert as there are many modellers who can easily surpass me with their experiences and knowledge. You just happened to pick on a chassis that I know and use.
Here is one of my locos which uses parts from a modern type Hornby 0-4-0 chassis, mounted onto an older Triang metal chassis (Which required quite some work to get the chassis and body to fit. It is 7mm narrow gauge (0-16.5) adapted to this larger scale using a Smallbrook Studio "Clio" body kit. It is shown next to the Hornby "Smokey Joe" which uses the same chassis as your class 06, except it has cylinders and the piston rods on the wheels. The Smokey Joe is 00 gauge so gives a good size comparison.
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IMG_20171019_142556.jpg

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PaulTable
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Re: Drive motor help

Postby PaulTable » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:58 pm

Thank you for you reply Mountain . That is a very clever modification and looks great.


Today I picked up a couple of engines ( £10 and £12 stock pics )that I thought had the correct electric motor inside suitable for my mods but on inspection I found the tank engine to have an open style motor and not the "can style" However I will use it at a later date.
51jawz-rz0L._SL1094_.jpg
R2673_1.jpg

The diesel shunter needs to be stripped down and inspected correctly and appears to have a bent axle . I cannot fathom how to get the wheels off the axle and off the chassis, Do I need a special tool or is there a procedure to follow? . Any ides please.
Thank you.

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Mountain
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Re: Drive motor help

Postby Mountain » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:25 pm

I have used a small screwdriver but go easy. Be aware that when putting it back together the back to back AND the wheel quartering need to be set correctly. While it is not a major job, it can be a bit fiddly to get right, and is why it is easiest to leave the wheels on if one can.
Wheel quartering is simple where the drive wheels on one side are a quarter of a turn to the other side. Only when they are, the wheels rotate freely with the connecting rods (Con rods).
I hope this helps.
The con rod pins can be taken out by pulling with pliers. Can take a bit of force on newer chassis compared to older types.
The open framed motor is the second type which is the first type for this chassis.


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