Tips on using real coal required please

Having a problem making your model railway layout look real. Post questions and share the results of your model railway scenery here.
Post Reply
Ex-Pat
Posts: 2201
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:51 pm
Location: Newry Northern Ireland

Tips on using real coal required please

Post by Ex-Pat »

I’ve just broken up a lump of coal, and can’t get over how much dust there is.

I’m very interested to know how you all go about using it. For example:

Do you wash it to get the dust off?

Or do you use the dust as a “sprinkle”?

What sort of glue do you use? (PVA or what?)

Any other tips gratefully received – thanks in advance.
User avatar
flying scotsman123
Posts: 2233
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:29 pm
Location: err, down there round the corner... not that one!!!

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by flying scotsman123 »

To glue it down I've used neat PVA in the tender, put the coal in then a watered down PVA with fairy liquid on top, as with ballasting.

Don't worry about dust, put it all in! There was a discussion about coal quality back in real days on another forum and the consensus was it was much worse than the stuff that reaches tenders of preserved locomotives today, with descriptions of a few lumps about 2 foot in size in vast quantities of dust, and little in between. I shall try and find it and return if I do....
Image
Stone station in pre-grouping days, my layout. Workbench for other projects here.
Bigmet
Posts: 10173
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 pm

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by Bigmet »

Dust levels vary enormously with coal type: hardest bituminous coal very little, soft coal an awful lot. If you can find a harder coal use it, because soft coal just sheds dust all the time. If that's not possible, gently sieve it. Regular PVA or 'white glue' works very well to secure coal. Check before use that the version you have dries clear so it 'disappears' when gone off.

My favourite trick for use in wagons and bunkers, line the space the coal is to go into with cling film well overhanging the outside faces of the space. Let it go off fully, I often allow a whole week in a warm place. Then the coal load can be lifted out, the clingfilm removed and is thereafter a removeable load.
User avatar
flying scotsman123
Posts: 2233
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:29 pm
Location: err, down there round the corner... not that one!!!

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by flying scotsman123 »

https://www.national-preservation.com/t ... 303/page-4

The main discussion here is about coal quality, but a few posts on size on pgs 4 and 5. Hope it's helpful.
Image
Stone station in pre-grouping days, my layout. Workbench for other projects here.
User avatar
carnehan
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:44 pm

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by carnehan »

I can't add anything further other than to say watered down PVA works a treat for me. If I'm making permanent loads in wagons, such as the Airfix mineral wagons, I use the moulded load included in the kit to reduce the depth needed for actual coal and therefore reducing drying time too.

Paul
Ex-Pat
Posts: 2201
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:51 pm
Location: Newry Northern Ireland

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by Ex-Pat »

Thank you gentlemen all.
User avatar
End2end
Posts: 6010
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: At the end....... and sometimes at the other end

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by End2end »

Bigmet wrote:My favourite trick for use in wagons and bunkers, line the space the coal is to go into with cling film well overhanging the outside faces of the space. Let it go off fully, I often allow a whole week in a warm place. Then the coal load can be lifted out
I actually sink a piece of balsa wood (around 5mm thick-ish) into the cling film lined wagon, paint neat pva on the balsa top and sprinkle the load scatter on top to the amount I want.
I then use a 50/50 pva/water mix with a couple of drops of washing up liquid to break the surface tension of the mix and pipette this over the load.
Once dry this gives a thick and strong load without having to use a lot of scatter and can also be used in wagons of the same size.
I sometimes add some flat card feet to the underside of the balsa to get upto any extra need height.
I also add a piece of lead flashing under the load the size of the inside of the wagon to weigh the wagon down.

Word of warning!!!....As Bigmet says you must leave them long enough to dry. I mistakingly put my wet loaded wagons into the airing cupboard to dry for 3 days. Thinking they had dried I turned one upside down and the wet mix came pouring out and all over the wagons sides creating a complete mess. I hade to completely clean the wagon and start from scratch. :evil:
Lesson learnt the hard way! :lol:

One thing pointed out to me was to have a look at how coal etc is loaded into wagons to see the heaps the loading mechanisms would make.
Thanks
End2end
"St Blazey's" - The progress and predicaments.
Welcome‎
Planning
Building
St. Blazey's Works & Depot thread
Ex-Pat
Posts: 2201
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:51 pm
Location: Newry Northern Ireland

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by Ex-Pat »

Thanks E2e.
User avatar
Bufferstop
Posts: 13791
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:06 pm
Location: Bottom end of N. Warks line

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by Bufferstop »

Bigmet wrote: My favourite trick for use in wagons and bunkers, line the space the coal is to go into with cling film well overhanging the outside faces of the space. Let it go off fully, I often allow a whole week in a warm place. Then the coal load can be lifted out, the clingfilm removed and is thereafter a removeable load.

My twist on the idea:-
Bury a nail in the coal before adding the PVA, remove load with a magnet!
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions
User avatar
End2end
Posts: 6010
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: At the end....... and sometimes at the other end

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by End2end »

Bufferstop wrote:My twist on the idea:-
Bury a nail in the coal before adding the PVA, remove load with a magnet!
I should have done this. Now I have to remove the wagon from the rake/track to get the load out. :?
Thanks
End2end
"St Blazey's" - The progress and predicaments.
Welcome‎
Planning
Building
St. Blazey's Works & Depot thread
User avatar
Mountain
Posts: 5856
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:43 pm
Location: UK.

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by Mountain »

There is a problem with using PVA as a glue and that is especially an issue when it comes into contact with lead or liquid lead and that it can over a period of around 20 years distort the plastic bodies of models. PVA can also do this where it does not come in contact with lead. I have seen wagons with coal loads where the plastic has distorted in shape for sale secondhand after PVA has been used, so I have decided to go easy on the PVA. I have used glues like UHU in the past. The only issue with UHU is that it does eventually (Takes a good 10 years usually) go hard and lose its ability to bond. I used to use UHU for everything as a teenager as it was the only glue apart from Bostic which I could buy via our travelling hardware style shop which came to us on wednesday evenings. He usually kept UHU in stock. If not he had Bostic in the pink tubes.
But the things I have glued in the past from those days have needed re-glueing around a decade later. I did not use so much Bostic so I can't comment on that. I preferred UHU as it had a nicer smell, not that I went around sniffing glue!
Bigmet
Posts: 10173
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 pm

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by Bigmet »

'PVA' covers a multitude of product. Buying a branded product intended for woodworking from such as Unibond may cost more, but it cures reliably and is clear, and won't corrode metals or do any other damage. Go for cheap and who knows what you are getting? Often not pH neutral for a start...

As for contact adhesives, old faithful is original formulation Evostick. Still in production, because among other applications it is used to attach laminate finish to MDF kitchen worktops, and you can tell it's the real thing by the powerful reek of alkanes. Use in a well ventilated location. I use this to attach lead because it holds for as long as required - over forty years in some of my models - but remains elastic and thus the bond can be released at need. (I have been known to glue in motors where the provided mounting is wimpy, and you want to be able to replace these !)
User avatar
Lysander
Posts: 2342
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:53 pm

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by Lysander »

PVA and lead shot ballast is widely accepted as bad news but in 40 years of modelling I haven’t experienced any adverse reactions when PVA is used alone with plastics.

Tony
Men with false teeth may yet speak the truth.......
gppsoftware
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am

Re: Tips on using real coal required please

Post by gppsoftware »

Mountain wrote:There is a problem with using PVA as a glue...of around 20 years distort the plastic bodies of models.
In 40 years of modelling, I have never heard of or experienced PVA having that effect - and I use it regularly.

However what I have noticed is that some plastics from some manufacturers can and do distort over time. Now that may be due to the warmer climate here and the level of UV light being higher so things like plastic garden chairs are absolutely hammered by sunlight. While most plastics seem to tolerate this these days and not go brittle, they usually end up going matt on their surfaces after 5 years or so.
Of course, we don't operate model railways in direct sunlight, but I am convinced that the warmth and humidity combinations here do have a long term effect, not just on models!

Other models, such as the original Mainline/Replica collett coaches were made distorted in the first place because they were removed from their moulds before properly cooled. I always check any models I purchase because it is still surprising the number of coaches and wagons which are not exactly straight.
Post Reply