Dapol wheels

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Richamp
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:36 pm

Dapol wheels

Postby Richamp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:47 pm

Hello, I'm new to this having been bought a Hornby Tornado set, it played on my mind 'til I made a 6x4 table then it played on my mind 'til I bought a Somerset Belle set. So far so good. Then I went to a local model rail exhibition and among other things I got a DAPOL milk tanker.

It just derails all the time I've added 10grams but no difference.

Thing is I have a similar Hornby truck that doesn't derail, the only difference I can see is the wheels. The flange on the Dapol truck is half the size of those on the Hornby truck. I'm guessing that's the problem.

Here's the question: if I buy Hornby wheel sets will they fit on the Dapol and how do I get them off. Is it possible to just lever them off without damaging anything.

I thank you all in anticipation.

D0260
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Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:55 pm

Re: Dapol wheels

Postby D0260 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:38 pm

The Dapol axle is a different length to the Hornby and Bachmann one . As to whether you could swop the wheels , I havent checked if they were the same axle diameter or not.. Check the back to backs , because the shallow flanges leave them easier to derail than the Hornby deep ones, and make sure the centre wheel set is 0.1-0.5mm narrower so there is a bit of lateral play when going round curves - You're not trying to run them round size 1 curves and points are you?

Dad-1
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Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:50 pm

I hate to say it, but it's probably your track.
First being a 6 wheel wagon it has problems going around 1st radius curves although adjustment of
the wheel Back to Back measurements should enable it to run.
I fear your biggest problem is track that is not absolutely flat. As you have noted Dapol and many kits
use wheels of a finer scale and therefore smaller depth flanges. Any twist will allow wheels to lift and
once the flanges are above rail head height they will de-rail.

Is you rail fixed to a board ? Does the board flex ? and is it supported to prevent it from twisting ?

I have had to fix many a minor track fault invisible to most club members, but running long wheelbase
kit built wagons my stock is unforgiving and I thoroughly check any de-railing locations. You'll find your
problem is at limited locations.

You can buy packs of Hornby wheels that will clip in as direct replacements and offer you that greater
flange depth, that may hide the track faults.

Geoff T
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Richamp
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Richamp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:04 pm

D0260 wrote:The Dapol axle is a different length to the Hornby and Bachmann one . As to whether you could swop the wheels , I havent checked if they were the same axle diameter or not.. Check the back to backs , because the shallow flanges leave them easier to derail than the Hornby deep ones, and make sure the centre wheel set is 0.1-0.5mm narrower so there is a bit of lateral play when going round curves - You're not trying to run them round size 1 curves and points are you?


I only have 2nd rad track. Just checked with a Vernier the centre is 0.1mm less that the outer wheel sets, is that adjustable?

Dad-1
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Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:05 pm

I don't know where D0260 gets the idea that they are not interchangeable.
I have done so frequently. A couple of years back I did an analysis

Dapol Axles 3 hole 26.0 mm
Hornby Plastic wheeled 25.95
Hornby Spoked 25.70
Hornby 3 hole 25.65
Alan Gibson 3 hole 25.88

Maximum variation 0.35 mm easily accommodated in the needle axle box
holes.

There were differences many years ago, but that's getting back to the plastic
wheels & axles, things like Ratio kits and such.

Geoff T
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:11 pm

Yes, you can adjust easily by using a twisting motion and either
pull or push as required adjustment demands.

I still think it'll be uneven track more than anything else. Try
a B2B measurement of 14.35 on the centre and 14.45 the outer.
Normally one would look for 14.50, but a little more wriggle room
will probably help - so long as you clear check rails in points.

Certainly well laid 2nd radius will not be a problem.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:16 pm

Oh, How to change them.
I use the thumb on one hand to spring the axle box out while the
thumb and forefinger hold and pull the axle alongside the axle box
you're springing out.

Be warned though 6 wheel milk tankers are prone to problems and
some experimenting needed before you crack it.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Richamp
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Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Richamp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:24 pm

Dad-1 wrote:Oh, How to change them.
I use the thumb on one hand to spring the axle box out while the
thumb and forefinger hold and pull the axle alongside the axle box
you're springing out.

Be warned though 6 wheel milk tankers are prone to problems and
some experimenting needed before you crack it.

Geoff T.


I'm sure I replied before dunno where it went. The board is on a 45mm square frame with 9mm ply on top but its not fixed yet as I'm just laying it out before I decide on final layout.

I'll try the Hornby wheels sets, I like the wagon don't want to just leave it in a siding.

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stuartp
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Re: Dapol wheels

Postby stuartp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:46 pm

At least one batch of the Dapol six-wheel tankers had what can only be described as square flanges which derail all over the place. Thick and coarse, identified by having an axle with a plastic muff in the middle. I had them on the blue Express Dairies version, the later white Co-op version has proper wheelsets. Hornby 3-hole discs drop straight in, Bachmann's were a bit tight. They can be eased by either filing down the pin-points slightly (not recommended) or simply squeezing the axleguards together hard between thumb and forefinger whilst turning the wheelset with the other hand.
Portwilliam - Southwest Scotland in the 1960s, in OO - http://stuart1968.wordpress.com/

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Bufferstop
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Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Bufferstop » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:05 pm

If you find that the centre wheelset has next to no lateral movement, deepen the alebox holes, enough that the axle will move from side to side but not drop out, about 1mm of movement would be great. That will make it much happier going around curves. When you refer to "Hornby wheels" are they the older metal tyre on plastic centre type, they had much deeper flanges and wider treads, there's not a big difference between the latest wheels from any of the major manufacturers.
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Richard Lee
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Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Richard Lee » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:29 am

Concerning the wheels on Dapol 6-wheel tanker wagons, I once bought a 'Polegate Treacle Mines' tank wagon (commissioned from Dapol by, I think, Southern Pride). As it came out of the box, it wouldn't stay on the rails. It even derailed on my scenic 30" radius curve.

After a search on various forums, I found out that others had had problems with Dapol 6-wheel tank wagons. Many relevant posts gave the opinion that the profile of the wheels was at fault, and that it was necessary to replace the 2 outer sets of wheels. I did so, and it worked fine after that. The bizarre thing was that I used other Dapol wagon wheels from a pack of them that I had bought previously.

Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Dad-1 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:35 am

Rather than drill out the centre axle boxes as suggested by Bufferstop you could
always do the "Final" engineering solution. That is remove all traces of flanges
off the centre wheel set, dare I say simple enough. Having done that it becomes
in effect a 4 wheel wagon and all B2B settings can be consistent with all your other
stock. When in use you'd be pushed to notice there were no flanges.

If you want to know, Yes, I have used this principal on a locomotive and unless
pointed out nobody sees the centre wheel-set has no flanges. That story was my
small Thomas layout has some 1st radius curves, I obtained a '00' Bachmann USA
'Douglas' but although it's only a 0-6-0 it has a longer wheelbase than a Jinty and
simply couldn't be used. This was by far the easiest and most reliable method of
allowing unlimited use of the loco.

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=46675&start=390#p611843

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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stuartp
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Re: Dapol wheels

Postby stuartp » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:44 pm

Dapol early square flanges on the right, Hornby's rather more refined version on the left. There were some very strange design decisions made by Dapol around this time (Stove R anyone ?) but fortunately they appear to have moved on.

dapol wheels.jpg
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Richamp
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Richamp » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:12 pm

Dad-1 wrote:Rather than drill out the centre axle boxes as suggested by Bufferstop you could
always do the "Final" engineering solution. That is remove all traces of flanges
off the centre wheel set, dare I say simple enough. Having done that it becomes
in effect a 4 wheel wagon and all B2B settings can be consistent with all your other
stock. When in use you'd be pushed to notice there were no flanges.

If you want to know, Yes, I have used this principal on a locomotive and unless
pointed out nobody sees the centre wheel-set has no flanges. That story was my
small Thomas layout has some 1st radius curves, I obtained a '00' Bachmann USA
'Douglas' but although it's only a 0-6-0 it has a longer wheelbase than a Jinty and
simply couldn't be used. This was by far the easiest and most reliable method of
allowing unlimited use of the loco.

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=46675&start=390#p611843

Geoff T.


Something similar, I removed the centre sets of wheels and it runs perfectly so I guess the above would work.

I'm gonna leave this issue for now and revisit it later as I want to get a station on the board to get closer to my final layout.

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Mountain
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Re: Dapol wheels

Postby Mountain » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:36 pm

One old trick to get 6 wheel wagons or locomotives to work better is to either grind off the wheel flanges on the centre pair of wheels or to raise the centre pair slightly or even have a smaller centre pair of wheels. This will cause the wagon to act as a 4 wheel wagon and reduce the issues associated with running 6 wheel vehicles.
Real life 6 wheel wagons have much more weight even unloaded and they don't have to negotiate such sharp curves, so it is not an issue.


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