Intending to try 'EM'

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Dad-1
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Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Dad-1 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:26 pm

O.K. 'EM' that elusive move towards accurate scale without actually getting there !!
I think most of us 'Put Up' with the inaccuracies in U.K railway modelling because it's
the easy way to go. There are also technical reasons why '00' fits better into the spaces
we have available.
But I want to try, what could arguably be thought of as better standards. So why not go
the whole way into P4 ? Back to the beginning, because it's easier !

Some time back I bought a pair of EM track roller guides and then on Saturday 28th December
at the West Camel Exhibition I bought 5 lengths of C&L flexi track for £10.

Just out of curiosity I pulled an old Hornby 'Norstand' 20 Ton coal wagon out of a dark corner
in the loft. I couldn't find a recommended back to back setting, but removed wheels from the
axles, trimmed off any outward protruding traces of the plastic wheel centre and then replaced
with a spacing that allowed some side to side movement on the rails.
They fitted fine and it ran so smoothly I was taken aback !!

Now I'll probably join the EM society to find where I get EM Loco axles. I'm looking at turning my
Green Hornby 06 into my EM traction for a small shunting type of layout. Making a couple
of points ? My one attempt on '00' worked O.K so just perhaps ??????

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Mountain
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Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Mountain » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:23 pm

It is a great idea. Go for it! Go for some more realistic or more hidden couplings as well. :)

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Bufferstop
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Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:36 pm

Geoff, you are doing just what Peter Denny did back in the 1940s when he started "Buckingham" He had no info on EM standards so he just used the 00 components of the day and pushed the wheels out the extra 1.5mm. I believe he was the first to show a working EM layout in an exhibit-able state. It's still working today with original stock and still to his simple standards. At a guess I'd say back to back should be somewhere between 16-16.5mm.
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Dad-1
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Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Dad-1 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:48 pm

I can't do a lot at the moment because I've just posted my joining forms
off to the EM Society.
I suppose I could just buy some axle steel ready for my Loco conversion, but best to ask
a few questions from people who know. Wagon conversion is easy as my one attempt has
proved, it is a rubbish wagon though, one of those rather old Hornby offerings with a brass
rivet holding on a wide D coupling. Ahh yes and no hook with ride height & buffers too high.
Always with a view to doing something for a price I am tempted to use several initially as
they'll be costing nothing. In fact the good work (I hope) will be limited to trackwork and general
scenic standards.
Simple really, should I not be able to build good enough points then the whole project would be
a failure. That would really get me down if I'd spent a couple of hundred pounds on a half
decent loco and 10 good wagons. These however can easily be purchased when the working
layout has proved it's worth.
Actual layout 'On Costs' shouldn't be too bad with enough C&L track that I got for £10. I have EM
track roller gauges, base boarding, wire, track pins (If I use them), copper-clad sleepering and
nearly all the other scenic materials.

I've decide on a name and geographical type of location. "Cheapside Creek" Some railway sidings
on the edge of a creek with mud banks although protected from flooding by small banks of earth.
I have a resin casting of a sunken barge and the skeleton of a boat can easily be represented
using matchcticks, small twigs, wire et all.
Ideas are flooding my imagination ..............
This may be the cheapest EM layout possible in it's early stages - Next move into under construction
threads.

Oh and size will be small enough to fit on the car back seat (Max 48" long) This is a challenge to do
something NEW to follow :-
Two Short Planks - A 16' x 1' end to end
St Oval - A small 6'x3' Roundy-roundy
Castell Mawr - A large 21'6"x 7'6" Roundy-roundy
Thomas & Friends Visit Bride Bay - One specifically made for children to drive.
HS2 - A shunting puzzle with Kadees
West Bay - A prototypical end to end layout, again using Kadees
All the above in '00' and still in regular use.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Bufferstop
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Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:05 pm

Geoff my rollergauge for 00 has a second ring for setting checkrails. If your EM gauge has them they should give you a hint as to the B to B. What loco are you thinking of converting. If it's purely as something to provide low cost traction for some kit built stock, until you can justify a better loco, I'd go for an old Triang dock shunter, dead cheap, no quartering, drop in axles coach wheels will do there's no way you'll push out the old steamroller job. I think Hornby coach wheels with the bushes pushed out are a fit to the axles.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
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Dad-1
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Dad-1 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:21 am

Funny you should say that Dave !

No not Marilyn, she sits on Two Short Planks in the loft and gets used at least once a week.
Not a million miles away though, her best friend Duncan, a Green Hornby 06 Diesel Shunter.
The other locomotive I have 'In Stock' is a Hornby LNER J94 Austerity, it was bought about
a year ago to be my EM loco. Both of these should be easy to convert, no complicated valve
gear and space inside to spread the track. So far the 06 is the best runner, both are converted
to DCC, the J94 sounds rough and not happy at super low speed.

Bufferstop, yes my rollers have the second groove, but they were in the shed when I set the
converted wagon, couldn't be bothered to go out after dark !!

Eventually IF all works out to my satisfaction I'll want to go Kadees although I have been looking
at Spratt & Winkle. Initially it'll be big old heavy Hornby tension-lock because both those locomotives
are going to be difficult to convert to say Kadees, and the old wagons are too antiquated for me to
bother to convert even to my big layout standard of Bachmann narrow tension-lock. In effect they
are little more than scrap to me.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Peterm
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Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Peterm » Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:51 am

Sounds interesting Geoff. If it was me and small layout worked out well, I'd probably get carried away and expand it. :)
Pete.

Dad-1
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Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Dad-1 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:16 pm

Peterm .....NO expansion allowed.
Small is beautiful and that reinforced by having been out at exhibitions with
HS2 - all of 49" wide and fits the back seat on 28th December
Thomas - Folding to 36" square and just fits the car boot on 4th & 5th January.
They were enough hard work to convince me, I saw others struggling with their
big layouts.

I don't know when this will move forward, I have another exhibition this weekend
taking all my immediate attention and anyway until I receive the EM group papers
I don't know what length EM points I'll have to make.

With a few minutes spare I'm converting 2 more wagons.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Dad-1 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:44 pm

Here we have 3 old Hornby, ex Triang 21 ton Loco coal Wagons
these are repainted Norstand wagons, not of course for Locos,
but shipping and ship repairs in Grimsby.
As far as I was concerned they were all but scrap, but have been
re-set to EM, or at least my current EM settings of 16.05 - 16.10
back to back.

Image

Only 1 decalled with a spoof post 1948 number. The wagons were
built just before WWII and I doubt you'll ever know what happened
to them.

They seem so smooth and stable on EM track with much reduced Yaw
when moved from side to side.

Geoff T
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Dad-1
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Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Dad-1 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:14 pm

So far - and it's only arrived today, I'm not impressed with the availability of information
on the EM web site.
Why ?
Simply because I know nothing and need to find information as simple as 'How do I safely
remove wheels from Locomotives ?"
A Puller ? If so what types are there and what is though to be best.

Few posting on the web site, unless I'm not getting into the core, are under 2 years ago.
That is not to say the questions hadn't been answered at the time, it's just too darned quiet.

The point templates are fine ..... only I'm looking for tight short points for a yard. With my
planned shunting yard being limited to 48" long I simply can't use prototypical running line lengths.
I know it can be done as the EM yard layout "Suffolk Street" showed in January edition of Railway
Modeller.

Why bother ? A good question, but I don't think it should be that difficult with the right help and
support. The following sort of shows why and that it shouldn't be too hard or expensive.
Compare the sleeper spacing !!

Image

Stock conversion ? Here is the underside Triang type of early Hornby with Dapol wheels pulled out
to a suitable EM spacing. A detail to note is that they seem so much more stable on EM gauge.

Image

Still much to learn !!

Geoff T
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Bufferstop
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Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Bufferstop » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:37 pm

What are you planning to do with locos, pull the wheels out wider, or replace them narrower finer flange ones. I found the frame bushes for one eighth axles are a snug fit in Hornby axle holes, and make bushes for the gears as well. You can order them from Markits but it's case of phone or send an order form. I refuse to put card details on emails so I email him the order form with a note to ring me for the card details. Bit of a faff but it seems to work. It's better if you can find someone who has the stuff in stock and a sensible web site. Mainly Trains used to be good but SE Finecast have taken on the majority of his lines, I haven't used them yet.
Growing old, can't avoid it. Growing up, forget it!
My Layout, My Workbench Blog and My Opinions

Dad-1
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Dad-1 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:37 am

Hi Bufferstop,

The initial plan is to pull-out, perhaps replace the axles on the Hornby 06 to make functional.
This could of course need the check rails having a wider gap than the standard EM settings
due to thicker flanges. Because the planned EM shunting layout will have no more than 3 points
which will themselves be shorter than accepted minimums I know wider settings will be required.

My HSII layout viewtopic.php?f=22&t=50741
is more or less the sort of thing I'm going for as a trial.
I'm seriously too old (77) to plan, or build anything like a larger layout. It must be compact,
reasonably fast to make, transportable in an average car, and initially very low cost regarding
locos and stock. I don't mind building more kits later specifically for this project it's only the
loco that has me pondering because the Hornby J94 I bought is a poor runner, generally worse
than I remember my green 06 and certainly much worse than Marilyn (Blue 06).

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Richard Lee
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Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Richard Lee » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:12 pm

Concerning track, the Peco made stuff from the EM society might well be the best option, but if you are looking for others, Marcway do ready-made copper-clad points for EM as well as OO. They also do SMP flexitrack in EM. I presume that their EM points are of similar lengths to the OO ones. Their OO gauge 3' radius points are about 235 mm in length, so perhaps a little longer than Peco Streamline medium points. If you are in the UK you could buy a set of templates from them, if you were interested. (I think that they are down as "Layout Planner Full Size Rail Prints Of The Range" at just under £6.) They aren't the same geometry as Peco ones, so you wouldn't be able to plan the layout in AnyRail.

http://marcway.net/list2.php?col=head&n ... +Pointwork

http://marcway.net/list3.php?col=head&n ... EWAY+TRACK

I have never seen their EM points and track as far as I am aware. Their OO points are okay, although I have had to repair a couple with the aid of a soldering iron. I use them without modification, using Markway/SMP manual point levers to operate them.

The Marcway points use thin copper sleepers and the SMP flexitrack has a thin base, so they match reasonably well. The rails are lower than Peco track would be.

Dad-1
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Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: Dorset - A mile from West Bay.

Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Dad-1 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:09 pm

I have yet to read Richards posting - I have this cooking !

Today I moved the wheels out on my old green Hornby 06. Not quite as wide as the standard 16.1 - 16.2 but wide
enough to run satisfactorily on the EM track. It was a 'Butcher' job of laying the loco on it's side and using a small
hammer and suitable punch to drive the axles down. They are splined axles that I'll need to replace for an acceptably
tight fit.
Here is the proof :- Youtube allowing !!

https://youtu.be/3cctZ1DQaX8

The board beneath is that on which the shunting layout will be built.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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Stainsacre
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Re: Intending to try 'EM'

Postby Stainsacre » Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:35 pm

It works :!: it just goes to show that you don’t need to spend the earth to get nice slow smooth running 8)


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