Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

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b308
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby b308 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:48 pm

Emettman wrote:Peco do do live frogs on their "mainline" version of OO9, but their more compact
( PECO SL-E497 Code 80 Medium Radius 'Y' Point ') might be the best option in a smaller space.

I've seem those 3D printed loco kits and wondered if they were worth getting? Seems a cheap option


Mine, now over 2 years old needed some scraping/polishing to get surfaces properly smooth, but quality appears to be changing rapidly.
While there are expensive and highly detailed kits, some of the bodies seem remarkably inexpensive, at least to me.
Especially some of the OO9 railcars?

Chris


Hi Chris, just to clarify, the Peco OO9 set track points are 9" and dead frog. The Crazy Track points are all live frog, 12" for LH and RH and 18" for the Y. The Mainline points are 18" and all live frog. (All new stock, you can find older 9" live frog points from the '80s, and dead frog 12" ones from earlier times. Buy New or if secondhand check carefully before purchase!).

3D printing has come on in leaps and bounds over the past few years, the earlier stuff from Shapeways and others needed a lot of work to smooth off but was relatively cheap - Shapeways has currently - WSF (white, strong and flexible) as it says it's white and strong but detail is not so good but it's cheap(ish). Then we got FUD which was a lot smoother (just needs a clean up) and just recently XUD (slightly better), however both of them are very delicate and with detailed models you have to be careful and both cost a lot more. For me it's a no brainer, I use FUD or XUD as the stuff I model are real trains so I need the detail those two give.

Trouble with ordering from Ebay is that the cheaper stuff is likely to be WSF, hence I suggested going direct to Shapeways so you can choose the finish yourself.

Forgot to mention this manufacturer as well, Mountain may want to take a look as he does O-16.5 as well!

http://www.cwrailways.com/009-ng.html

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Mountain
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Mountain » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:03 pm

I've looked at these for some time and they are indeed attractive. However, the prices are quite high when I compare them to cast resin kits from the likes of Smallbrook Studio and others.
Yes, I agree both processes are different so it is not a case that I would be comparing like for like, but as C.W. is almost twice the price, if they both made the same product Smallbrook would be the more attractive to most.
For me, as my budget is quite tight these days, I rarely get to buy a kit. My next buy if I had the cash would be a certain Smallbrook Studio loco body kit as I have a donor loco for it. Indeed, Mike made the kit as I asked him if another kit he had could be adapted to fit. While it could I saw him take the plunge and make one, so one of these days when I'm feeling wealthier I will certainly buy one. :)
This is not to say that I won't consider CW's kits if I come into a decent living in the future as they most certainly are attractive. I like the cab kit to convert an 0n30 Porter type loco. I've recently seen one on a layout in the Railway Modeller and it certainly looks the part!
Enjoying 7mm narrow gauge.

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Emettman
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Emettman » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:31 pm

Mountain wrote:I've looked at these for some time and they are indeed attractive. However, the prices are quite high when I compare them to cast resin kits from the likes of Smallbrook Studio and others.



Just checking: I may be confused;
I didn't think Smallbrook did OO9 (I can't see it on a first look)
And O scale 3D printed bodies do tend to be expensive, even for 0-16.5 narrow gauge.

Chris
"It's his madness that keeps him sane."

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Mountain
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Mountain » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:50 am

They dont at the moment. No idea if they will in the future. :)
Was replying to B308.
I've no idea as to why it cost so much to 3D print a loco body in 0-16.5 as in theory it should be cheaper to produce then the cast method due to the hours of model making work and the mould making and replacing etc.
Both methods as a business I would imagine cost a lot in tools though as a larger quality 3D printer is not cheap, neither is a vacuum type shaking machine that is used for larger productions of resin casting as this helps to prevent bubbling. It is not essential but the businesses who cast in resin are likely to have invested in one. I can't remember the name of the machine. It creates a vacuum to suck the resin into the mould and at the same time vibrates or Jiggs the work about to ensure any bubbles which maybe present are raised to the surface.
For the home armature resin caster, just a simple resin casting kit is sufficient.
Enjoying 7mm narrow gauge.

b308
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby b308 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:35 am

Once you made the patterns the cost of casting is the same, and uses relatively cheap materials, the patterns are the big cost, but a one-off cost. Whereas with 3D printing the cost of the print is always the same regardless of how many you make and the materials cost more as does the printer (if its a decent one) and it takes much longer to print out, so if you want a big run you'll need several machines. That's why 3D prints cost more and larger 3D prints (7mm vs 4mm scales) cost even more.

Very simplified... With castings (white metal, resin, or for the best finish, brass) it's better for larger runs but 3D allows you to keep costs level for very small runs... Hence the "test" models of new RTR tend to be 3D prints whilst the finished product is mainly made using patterns and injection mouldings... Horses for courses...

However the more that 3D printing develops the better, and cheaper, it will become... As I mentioned earlier it's come on in leaps and bounds over the past two or three years...

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Mountain
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Mountain » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:25 pm

To invest in the equipment for a professional approach with resin casting will set you back a good few thousand.
Resin casting was not taken up by mainstream manufacturers as after ten uses of a mould one is on borrowed time, hence why resin casting tends to be more of a cottage industry.
Home resin casting is relatively cheap. Certainly much cheaper at the moment then a budget 3D printer. A resin casting starter kit is somewhere in the £45 area.
To make a mould one first simply scratchbuild the prototype model to cast from, so in this way resin casting can be much easier then sitting there for hours in front of a PC programming, so hour by hour and cost per cost for a professional business all in they are not as far apart as one may seem.
I believe the real difference in pricesmust relate to the materials themselves as resin goes a long way. If 3D printer material lasts anything like conventional 2D printers cartridges do then one would have to buy more after every other item printed. Resin however seems to go on and on and it has amazed me how far my two little tins of resin (Part A and part B tins) have lasted that were included in the resin casting kit. Ive made so many things. The moulding rubber itself ran out yonks ago in making the second mould.
Enjoying 7mm narrow gauge.

b308
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby b308 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:14 am

Mountain wrote:To invest in the equipment for a professional approach with resin casting will set you back a good few thousand.


Cheap compared with the type of equipment Shapeways and CWR are using, Mountain, the stuff they use costs well into five figures and as I pointed out they need more than one for batch production. The machines they use are nothing like those cheap "print at home" jobs you see advertised for a few hundred. CWR is now owned by someone else, but I knew the founder of the company personally and he was doing professional 3D printing for industry long before it took off the way it has now in the hobby market. Even though the machines he used then were crude in comparison to the top end stuff now use they still cost a small fortune.

The machines use a reel of plastic "wire", rather like a Mig welder... Have a read of this and you will see how it works and it's limitations and why it costs so much...

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 68937.html


(Sorry for the thread drift, Mumbles!)

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Mountain
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Re: Mumbles 009 Narrow Gauge Musings

Postby Mountain » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:50 am

CW has been around for some time as I remember seeing the adverts in the RM. Certainly before most learned about the 3D possibilities. Thanks for the link.
Back to 009. :lol:
Enjoying 7mm narrow gauge.


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