Kavster's Loft Layout

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Kavster
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:08 am

Good morning!

Yes, this is getting a bit addictive I have to say haha! :lol:

I've tried experimenting with your ideas this morning, and have come up with the following.

1) I've added thos points on the top and bottom two tracks. Added them as close to the curves as I can, think that works.
2) The freight area near the station. I wasent fully clear on what you meant, but I've made some changes and think it's what you meant? Haha!
3) I've extneded the platform and the bay track. The shortest bay track (closest to the platform) is 3ft in real dimensions. I didnt wanna extend too much into that corner as that's where I'll be putting a lot of the station buildings/roads/scenery/etc.
4) The dock area isnt exactly as flexible. Unfortunatley there are too support beams that run from the floor directly up into the roof, which means its difficult to actually get a curve round it. I've added those beams in as purple boxes to show what I mean. I've tried adding in a curve (and added a close up image) but i'm not sure it'll work? Might have to just re-think how to work out the dock track with entrance points that we've already put in. If you have any other ideas i'd be welcome to them. But There isnt much room in real life to add much of a triangle corner baseboard like I can on the station side.

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End2end
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby End2end » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:17 pm

I'll take each of the 4 points one by one.

1 - Yes that's correct.
2 - Not quite. I meant the passing loop on that now single siding rather than the other 2. Coming off the 3 way point in a straight line should make it slightly longer. You've connected the single siding to the loops but there's proabably no need unless that's how you want it.
3 - Right you are. Just one other suggestion on this new plan. Maybe move that outer track that's next to the bay track out a little more away from the bay track for a buildings footprint. Loading dock perhaps?
4 - Would you be able to add a small shaped baseboard or support around the front of the vertical supports? This way I think by using set track radii you could clear them and be able to get to the dock area.
The thing that doesn't flow for me is those siding ends at the top of the dock area. I think they should at least be connected or the track plan doesn't make much sense.
This would give you 2 proper passing loops. Otherwise you'd have to use the main lines. :?

If you can't add baseboards in front of the vertical supports, sorry I don't have your planning software so can't do it myself for you, but just as an experiment try adding a point directly after the blue points of the main line at the top and bottom entrance tracks (into the dock area) and go from there, redesigning the dock sidings. This will split the track as soon as it enters the dock area giving, I think, more options.
Hope it helps.
Thanks
End2end
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Kavster
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:50 pm

Thank you again for your input.

Just played around and come up with the following...

In terms of the freight area near the station. It seemed pretty tight trying to get two points on that siding to create a passing loop, so had to swing it off to the side to try and get enough length on it. Not sure if this works...but I at least hope this is what you meant lol! :lol:
If i'm still misunderstanding it, would you be so kind as to draw it out simply on paper please? lol!

Yes, i've moved that over which I think will give me more options. But when we come to building it, I at least know i've got some flexibility there.

In terms of adding a baseboard there, it's almost impossible. However, I can probably add a small section and support from the baseboard either side, and just have to dress up the support beam as something scenic haha :D
I've also redesigned the docks giving three lanes which (should) all connect, allowing a loco to come in either end and end up on any of the three lanes, and leave the other side. I've also kept the (headshunt?) area, as I do like the idea as having this as some kind of fuel filling or depot area. It's not very long, but should be able to get a single loco in either side. Each headshunt track is just over 1ft, so maybe even a 2 car E/DMU? Although not really sure if a E/DMU would be in the dock area to begin with tbh haha :lol:

I think this will work, but await your thoughts!

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Kavster
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:58 pm

Or possibly this configuation for the docks...?

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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby mumbles » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:13 pm

Sorry to go back go the other side a moment, but the green siding running down on the right hand side by the edge.. If the point to get to it was lower you could come straight off the mainline into it, then reverse in to the freight area and vice versa

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Kavster
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:00 pm

mumbles wrote:Sorry to go back go the other side a moment, but the green siding running down on the right hand side by the edge.. If the point to get to it was lower you could come straight off the mainline into it, then reverse in to the freight area and vice versa


That is actually a very good point...however, I can't get the point any lower without cutting a lot of the platform length.
The only way I could see to do it was to have it come from another point like this...but it does cut down it's length, and brings is back closer to the platform.

What do you think?

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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby mumbles » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:08 pm

Something like that yes. Don't forget, the track software is limiting, your best bet is to get a full double loop of flex and and some more for sidings and maybe half the amount of points you need but the ones on the main line for sure. You can then plan it all out in real model space, see how it all fits. That's what i find anyway.. The software is good ( as are pencil and pen drawings) until you get to actually laying track and seeing how the curves into and out really flow. Once you have a good drawn out plan on your baseboard then you know what points you actually need. Nothing like having a left hand when you need a right!

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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby mumbles » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:16 pm

Btw, I think if you just swap the slip with the point to the freight yard on that bit it solves it?

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Kavster
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:19 pm

I dont think I can swap the slip as I do need the four tracks on that point. It comes off the mainline top and bottom left. Then top right goes up to the sidings, and bottoms right goes down to the bit i've just changed. Unless I've misunderstood what you mean?

In regards to your first comment, that is good advice. I was looking at all the points that are on this layout, and thinking it's going to be an expensive outing to buy them all in one go anyway haha! :lol:
I do think I will do as you said, and buy the main running lines points, and then a few more with whatever money I have left. I'm probably just a little way off from buying these anyway. With the loft work nearing finishing, baseboards will be started in the next week or two hopefully.

I think i'm pretty happy with the plan now, with yours and End2end's fantastic help and advice it's come on massivly from the first design lol!
I do at least feel that I can move forward now with a plan in mind and on paper, and keep the progress flowing.

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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby mumbles » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:05 pm

Exactly.. You know what your doing now 8)

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End2end
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby End2end » Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:05 pm

Yes the 2nd configuration is what I meant and looks good.
Now the only problem I see is getting from the outermost track into the docks so I'd suggest moving the main line track changing points top and bottom right (blue) to the other side of the green points that lead into the dock area. Placing them just right of the middle vertical supports.
This way ANY train from ANY direction can both enter and exit the docks area the correct way.

My other suggestion would have to been to keep the docks upper headshunt which you've put back in on the final plan. :D
Or add another point there so you get a straight headshunt AND another curved docks siding. :mrgreen:
Useful for storing wagons loaded/unloaded at the dock.
Thanks
End2end
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby TimberSurf » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:23 pm

I posted this yesterday lunchtime, but it has disappeared!
So here is the gist of it again, I have eliminated the double slip (red) and three way point, as they are sometimes troublesome and not easy to fit with point motors and extended the triple sidings. I have also extended the main platform on the right.
"A" - The curve is too sharp and dont forget this triangle will need polarity reversal
"B" - The platform could be extended as a curve
"C" - This cross over is crippling your station length, you could move it up 20" and swap it with the very left passing loop.

If the top and bottom right hand side crossovers are moved left of the docks siding points, this allows outside trains to acces it.

I can explain further, but your board configuration would lend itself to a half split level principle very well, it would also eliminate going round the inside of the posts. Like I demonstrated here viewtopic.php?f=44&t=50742&p=626101&hilit=split+level#p626101
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Kavster
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:42 pm

End2end wrote:

Thank you! Yeah, I kinda looked at for a bit and then saw what I'd done wrong, so changed it haha!
I think i'm gonna keep it as one headshunt at the top, got a few ideas for scenery there, but can always add that extra one in the future if needs be!
I will change the points before the entrance/exit like yourself and TimberSurf have mentioned though...

TimberSurf wrote:

Thankyou for your suggestions. I also tried posting something yesterday only to notice it didnt take. Must've been an off day for the forum haha!
I do really like the sound of eliminating those double slips. They seemed to be a nessecary evil, and the fact I cant get them in electrofrog also bothered me. I can't quite make out exactly how you've managed it though? Thre tree way point removal is replaced (I assume) by two points connected?
I'll break down your points...
A) that curve is more of a suggestion at this time, and probably wont be connected to a point. It was more just a rough area to keep in mind for gaining access too a future fiddle yard. But I'll bear this in mind when building it...
B) I did want to keep that area clear for station buildings and scenics. I am however debating the posibility of putting the station buildings/scenics where the current three sidings are, and moving them down into the bottom triangle/corner area?
C) This is the bit I didnt fully understand, and would appreciate you explaining further if you can please?

I had a look at your half split level thread, and i understand the concept, but not where you were refering it could be applied to my layout?

Maybe its just me staring at this for too long at a late hour though haha :lol:

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Kavster
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby Kavster » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:55 pm

Ok, so I think I've come to a design that I'm going to go with.
It may have the very odd small tweak here and there, but I'm gonna stick with this and go for it. Otherwise I think I'll just keep making changes so often that I'll never 'be finished' designing.
I've also done some final measuring and made a few adjusments to the baseboard design. It's very minor but has meant I've had to change some track here and there.

I've made a few big changes, and a few small. I've also rotated the whole layout 90 degrees so it's easier to look at.
So firstly,

The station area...
I was really put off with the double slips being insulfrog, and the possible issues of having to try and get them to work.
So, I've made a few changes to the points.
Firstly, I've put in a 3-way. I know Timbersurf mentioned that they can be troublesome to wire up, but I'd rather go with one of those, than 2 double slips. This has enabled me to access all tracks. I've also moved the crossover points that were in (what is now) the bottom right. I've moved them up to just before the station which allows locos to cross over and access the top tracks that go towards the fiddle yard.

The TMD / frieght area has also been slimmed down. For 2 reasons. Firstly, I've had to redice the size of those triangle baseboards. They have been redced by a few inches which has cut down the area a small amount. Secondly, I was starting to feel that area was becoming very crowded with track and not leaving me much scenery options. I want to be able to put some terrain so it's not all flat, and so have sacrificed some track for scenic oppertunites. I beleive it still serves the same functions and shunting abilities, so I'm willing to make these cuts in track for space.

Lastly, I've managed to create another passing loop at the top of the board. So I can serve more platforms with through trains, and still have another track which goes to the fiddle yard. It also allows trains to come out from the fiddle yard straight into the station, or round to the dock area.

Overall, those are the changes I've made.
I havent changed the dock area, but may take out the middle lane to put in an unloading platform. So that it is between two tracks and can serve them both. I'm not sure. I think I will see how it goes with that area for now.

As always, I welcome your thoughts and input, and pointing out any mistakes I may have made. But overall, I am not going to make any major changes, and move forward with this design.

I do want to say a big thankyou to all of you that have helped me with this, as I really think I would've struggled to get the design anywhere near as operationaly intersting and functional without you. I truely am grateful.

I hope that you like the deisgn, and continue to follow my progress as I start the build.

Thank you again!

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End2end
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Re: Kavster's Loft Layout

Postby End2end » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:25 pm

He he you change the plan when I was editing it. :lol:
I know you've already moved the lower left hand point up but here's what I was going to propose.
FINAL_Design1EDITEnd2end.jpg
FINAL_Design1EDITEnd2end.jpg (28.2 KiB) Viewed 302 times

The green arrows show prototypical running direction and as thus...
@ 1 - change the points the other way round. That way trains coming out of the fiddle yard can change to the correct direction running track almost straight away. Keeping as much as possible out of the way of trains running the other way.
@ 2 - Although youv'e moved this pair of points I'm not sure they are actually needed if you change the upper pair of points the other way round as they are just part of the main running loops.
This will give full access to the fiddle yard from both tracks, plus as mentioned, full access to the dock area from both tracks.
Hope it helps.
Thanks
End2end

EDIT: Also....
Make sure there is space by the points next to the vertical upright for the train to be able to swing round the curves of the points.
Make sure there is enough space next to the vertical upright for any point motors.
Thanks
End2end
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