Galgorm Hall - Reborn

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carnehan
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby carnehan » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:52 am

Chris, you raise a good point. I don't have any arrangements for trains to enter the up line without first halting at the station. I'm not sure a multi level approach is the solution. For one, I don't know where it gets stored. The mainline is already going to be a raised structure to accommodate the branchline at lower level and for scenic purposes. That leaves quite a drop to access fiddle yards.

I've racked by brains for two days looking at alternatives. The first is cassettes. To accommodate a five coach train these would have to be in excess of 6' in length and therefore rather unwieldy and still leaves the issue of where to place them to gain access to the lines. The second, and an option that might work if I can get the curves is to use the spare bit of roof space where I currently envisage the branchline to terminate. A lower section would provide the fiddle yard for the branchline. If the mainline feeds straight off at that corner and can also have a connecting spur back to the mainline from the yard, I can have a fiddle yard for the mainline too. Something like this:

IMG_3850.JPG
IMG_3850.JPG (13.87 KiB) Viewed 1047 times

Does that make sense? If so, what's the tightest curves I can get away with to make the return to the mainline without fouling trains? 3rd radius?

I need to do some measuring up in the roofspace and playing with Anyrail to see if I can make that work.

Paul

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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby VerdevaleRailway » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:19 am

Might it not be simpler to have the fiddle yard coming off the branch line before it goes under (emerges from) the mainline in a straight run under the embankment the mainline is running on? Or are you trying to avoid any tunnels? I'm thinking your T intersection with double mainline may look a tad cluttered.
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Emettman
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby Emettman » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:33 am

A fiddle yard away from your main operating position might become annoying.

I sketched this, again thinking more of operation than of any prototype station.

Image

It gets 6ft platforms, the inner third platform setting the limit: despite the layout space, getting the the pointwork to start right after the end curves is important to get the maximum train length.

The inner third platform is the DMU platform, and is also a bidirectional terminal for main-line trains.
it has a track inside it which is a loco-run round as one role, also provides access and headshunt for the loco and goods sidings, which can branch off in a variety of directions as shown by the bare points shown.
In lieu of extra loops two full length carriage sidings are shown.
If space and appearance allowed, an extra train loop for clockwise trains could lie along the upper edge of the upper platform.

It's come out rather symmetrical, this being down to aiming for maximum passenger train length and to keeping train reversal and the goods shunting completely clear of the double track main-line, so as not to interrupt running.

Chris
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carnehan
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby carnehan » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:53 am

V.R. And Chris, thank you once again for your valued input. It should have occurred before now and with a failed layout already under my belt, I should know my limitations. Geoff mentioned way back on page 1 to not get ahead of myself and I have to agree with him albeit i should have realised it before now. :? I had a brief in mind but with some play of Anyrail over the last week or so, I have to admit that I was overstretching myself in what I wanted to achieve and what I can realistically reach on the layout plan.

Having stumbled upon the idea of replicating, in some way, my local station, my initial plan wouldn't allow for storage sidings without extensive woodwork added to the current baseboard. The 'T' formation of track feeding a fiddle yard was large, cumbersome, complicated and quite frankly looked crap and provided limited benefit. Less is more and with that in mind I've looked at the plan again and refined it.

Image
Out goes the double mainline and in comes a single line. Out goes some of the pointwork to be replaced by a less complicated and cleaner looking junction. Provision is now included for a fiddle yard on the non scenic end (not drawn due to 50 rail limitation). Compromises are made with the train lengths on the station platforms. 3 and 4 coach lengths should sit comfortably with the odd 5 coach at a squeeze on the mainline. The curves remain a generous R5 radius for a smooth flow and the station gets a gentle curve. I aim to add a little more sweep to the countryside mainline but again with 50 rail limitation I had to omit it from this plan. I may yet install a passing loop on the mainline on the lower side of the layout but am undecided on this.

Paul

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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby VerdevaleRailway » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:31 pm

Just throwing out food for thought.

Looking at it operationally, you have your roundy roundy train operating and have operational interest by maneuvering wagons between your station sidings and the branchline. But I think that having that second passing loop allows you to have a second train going in the opposite direction, or allows a train from the sidings/brancline have a run on the roundy. I think you get a fair amount of bang for your buck with the second passing loop. That's what I have in my layout, though it is all in a tunnel so I can't see what is there, but of course you have the option to turn your back on sections :)

But think carefully before you abandon a 2 mainline layout, there is something pleasant in having 2 trains passing each other, set and forget with them operating at differant speeds whilst operating your sidings.

Happy ruminating Paul!

:)
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Emettman
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby Emettman » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:00 pm

If that's ideas settling down, excellent.

On the single line main I'd definitely suggest an extra loop, 2 points for an extra train, either scenically, near the branch stations (originally different companies), or "out of sight" at the right hand end.
(Tucking the end of the branch line a couple of feet out sight also increases the capacity by a 2-car DMU.)

Ha! Two stations, different altitudes: remnants of a wagon lift, connecting the ends of a high and low siding?

Chris
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby TimberSurf » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:57 pm

OK, I won't get into the minute detail and prototypical configurations (as I know now't about that) but I am with the double track brigade!
Might I also suggest a new principle. As you obviously want an upper level, here is a trick to get twice as much for your buck.
I call it split level. Its not seen often but its a really clever trick. Basically, it allows a gradient to the upper level to be half as steep as a normal design. So in your case ensuring inclines are not to steep and more straight line to be level. Simply install the South 2ft wide board, 2 inches higher than the North (Station) 2ft wide board. That way, instead of having to rise 4 inches along the 6 foot of the side (one foot wide) boards, both sides each incline and decline just 2 inches. if it's hard to get into your head and your interested, I can post some diagrams for you.
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Dave
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby Dave » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:38 am

TimberSurf wrote:Simply install the South 2ft wide board, 2 inches higher than the North (Station) 2ft wide board. That way, instead of having to rise 4 inches along the 6 foot of the side (one foot wide) boards, both sides each incline and decline just 2 inches. if it's hard to get into your head and your interested, I can post some diagrams for you.

Yes, I think I need a diagram please...

Surely, if station A is physically 4" above station B, and the same distance away, no matter how you put the boards you still need to rise up 4" over the same distance.
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carnehan
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby carnehan » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:45 am

Thanks again chaps.

V.R. I worked and worked at getting a double mainline loop as it was in my initial brief. The complicated pointwork at the station, extra space needed at both ends to get it round the corner and thus compressing the scenics in between and the minimal additional 'play value' I gained from having it all left me with the conclusion to remove it altogether.

Emmetman, a wagon lift? Now do I really need to add something else complicated to the build process? I like the notion of it though so will file it away in the thought process box. An additional loop will definitely be added at the non scenic end of the layout though.

Timbersurf, I have reached a level of calm following a period of frustration with this planning process. I get what you are saying regarding a split level layout but rather than jig and re-jig things once again, I am quite satisfied with the path I am going to take. Some diagrams of your proposal would be inciteful though, if not for me, then someone else who has maybe still got notions off a two level layout.

Paul

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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby TimberSurf » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:40 pm

Just for Dave and others then

split level gradient diagram.jpg
split level gradient diagram.jpg (47.33 KiB) Viewed 956 times

High level is red and low level is blue
Gradient plan.jpg
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Gradient not split.jpg
Gradient not split.jpg (9.32 KiB) Viewed 956 times

Gradient split.jpg
Gradient split.jpg (9.27 KiB) Viewed 956 times
Image
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TimberSurf
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby TimberSurf » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:42 pm

and for the hard of hearing
Gradient Non split 3d.jpg
Gradient Non split 3d.jpg (16.47 KiB) Viewed 956 times

Gradient split 3d.jpg
Gradient split 3d.jpg (17.32 KiB) Viewed 956 times
Image
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VerdevaleRailway
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby VerdevaleRailway » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:47 pm

carnehan wrote: I am quite satisfied with the path I am going to take.

Paul


Well done, considering all your options and their feasibility at this stage prohibits the "what ifs" later on. There are always going to be trade offs, now you know what they are and the reasons you chose them. Kind of like dating, :shock:


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Dave
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby Dave » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:08 pm

The diagrams make perfect sense.... Except

If station A is 4" above station B and one lap away, for your theory to work there needs to be twice as much track ie two laps of travel.

Not to worry, I think the OP is looking at a flat track anyway.
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Bufferstop
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby Bufferstop » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:56 pm

Re Gradients
The diagrams used by Timbersurf to demonstrate gradients are correct in the mathematical sense, however railway gradients are measured as the rise in the going, ie. along the slope not the base of the triangle. Most railway gradients are so shallow that it makes not much difference any way. Apart from when a gradient is created on an embankment alongside level ground (such as the slope up to the top of a coaling stage) it's pretty difficult to measure the horizontal distance, rather than the distance up (or down) the slope. A friend who worked in the borough surveyors department said that they quoted roads footpaths and outside steps as rise along slope. but indoor ramps and stairways are quoted as rise in floor length. I've never checked that but I can see why it might be so.
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TimberSurf
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Re: Galgorm Hall - Reborn

Postby TimberSurf » Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:14 pm

Dave, your missing the point, it is a principle only, not a track plan.
Once the seed is set, can be utilised for:- a folded figure of eight, have cross overs at the middle level, double track, single track at mid level with points each end, etc.
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