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Emettman wrote:The points at the left-hand end look shorter...
The fixed triple curves look look good: Peco Setrack or someone else's?

And the big one : what are you hoping trains will do, that the fiddle yard will have to have facilities for.
As originally shown there were to be up to six trains in each direction taking turns to circle.

A more complicated fiddle yard will almost certainly put the operator at the back, there being a lot more to keep an eye on.


Chris

You're probably right on the L-H points

They are Peco setrack at the bottom but flexicurve at the top....well spotted

What am I hoping the trains will do???? What CAN I do??!! I think I have stated elsewhere I've never had trains before.....all this is totally new to me and I'm gonna take it one step at a time. Looking at the main plan the station coal-yard is mainly one way in and out the same way apart from the through 'third' line. I thought if I got it built in the main part then the running order could be thought of later (maybe I'm wrong on this?). My Idea for a turntable was to maybe turn an engine so it could run both directions but if that makes things really complicated then I'll ditch the idea. If there are eventually to be six trains each way then I suppose a turntable isn't needed!!

Once again I bow to your knowledge of these things Chris

CandO wrote:
What am I hoping the trains will do???? What CAN I do??!! I think I have stated elsewhere I've never had trains before.....all this is totally new to me and I'm gonna take it one step at a time. Looking at the main plan the station coal-yard is mainly one way in and out the same way apart from the through 'third' line. I thought if I got it built in the main part then the running order could be thought of later (maybe I'm wrong on this?). My Idea for a turntable was to maybe turn an engine so it could run both directions but if that makes things really complicated then I'll ditch the idea. If there are eventually to be six trains each way then I suppose a turntable isn't needed!!

Once again I bow to your knowledge of these things Chris

I have some knowledge...
I like to think of myself as a guide, but mainly in the sense of "Don't come this way it's quickssaaannn..."

My first three model railway projects never really got to operational, never mind completion. I had bitten off more than **I** could chew.
Subsequently I'be better learned to judge what I might actually finish, and budget for the loss of enthusiasm that hits a bit over half-way, when the initial spurt and sparl has faded and the encouraging finishing post ss not really in sight. This may be just me.

On the fiddle yard I'd suggest the simpler approach. At least until the front is finished.

Operating the coal yard is interesting. Are you sure the track runs right through those goods buildings? I can't tell from the picture but it seems unlikely that whole trains would trundle through them. I suspect the left end siding or sidings was a separate, unconnrected entity but, short of solid information, I can't be sure.

There is no run-round in the goods yard, so trains will almost certainly arrive at it in reverse, brake van first, along the inner, "headshunt" track and then leave in the same direction, the train loco having done the principal shunting.
I used Google to go further along the track to see if there was any sign of a former facing junction which would allow the goods train to arrive engine first.
(This would then need a yard engine to remove the train so that the arriving engine could escape and make ready to take the departing train... possible,, just, but I don't know the location or period at all well enough to know how this size of goods yard would have operated. (Horses? Last BR shunting horse: 1967)
Yes, there is/was one, as there are a pair of both facing and trailing crossovers just west of Accrington.

But C&O is too small a yard to have had it's own loco? I'm out of my depth and my comfort zone on that.
You'll have to appeal here to those who knows real railway working of the period better than I.

Chris

Emettman wrote:On the fiddle yard I'd suggest the simpler approach. At least until the front is finished.

Operating the coal yard is interesting. Are you sure the track runs right through those goods buildings? I can't tell from the picture but it seems unlikely that whole trains would trundle through them. I suspect the left end siding or sidings was a separate, unconnrected entity but, short of solid information, I can't be sure.

There is no run-round in the goods yard, so trains will almost certainly arrive at it in reverse, brake van first, along the inner, "headshunt" track and then leave in the same direction, the train loco having done the principal shunting.
Chris

Sorry for the late response to these queries Emmettman, been side-tracked a little of late (no pun intended!)

I AM going to keep the fiddle yard as simple as possible with not many tracks at all due to the cost of the points needed -the money would be better spent elsewhere on the project atm.

The track DOES run right through the goods warehouses and, after some more information received in the past couple of days, it is quite an intriguing building!

With regards to the absence of a run-round in the yard I have also found out there are two small turntables which run between a couple of the tracks in the yard....I presume they were used for the manual handling/horse drawing of coal trucks but I'm not quite sure how this worked.

Also due to the information I'm going to change the layout slightly but still mulling various options

Hope that helps!!

CandO wrote:
The track DOES run right through the goods warehouses and, after some more information received in the past couple of days, it is quite an intriguing building!


Hope that helps!!

I know plenty of goods buildings where the track runs through, the shed sitting on a loop , but until now none where the line through was a main connection to the running lines for the rest of the yard.

I didn't think running engines *through* goods sheds (or even into them) was at all a regular procedure, but this may be a gap in my understanding.

This came as an interesting read:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36844
but with some odd exceptions (Wells!) the general rule does appear to have been no engines in the good shed, so through-running trains arriving or departing would have been pretty unusual.
I couldn't find a text reference or a picture supporting such movements at a first look.

Chris

Emettman wrote:I didn't think running engines *through* goods sheds (or even into them) was at all a regular procedure, but this may be a gap in my understanding.

This came as an interesting read:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36844
but with some odd exceptions (Wells!) the general rule does appear to have been no engines in the good shed, so through-running trains arriving or departing would have been pretty unusual.
I couldn't find a text reference or a picture supporting such movements at a first look.

Chris

The main part of the Goods warehouse was open along one side and there is indeed a picture of the building end where it is tainted with smoke above the track although the same evidence isn't too apparent at the other end. Just had a look again and one of the turntables is on this track slap bang in the middle of the warehouse!

CandO wrote:The main part of the Goods warehouse was open along one side and there is indeed a picture of the building end where it is tainted with smoke above the track although the same evidence isn't too apparent at the other end. Just had a look again and one of the turntables is on this track slap bang in the middle of the warehouse!

Now that gets more curious, because not since broad gauge times would it be in the slightest bit normal for a locomotive to cross a wagon turntable!
(Again, subject to a better knowing better)

Any evidence of capstans in or around the goods buildings?

Chris

No evidence of capstans in any pics but have just read the station was remodelled in 1895 and it seems the turntables were removed then.....

One bit reads "A single siding spur enters a stone built goods warehouse sited alongside the down platform" (going W to E)

Gotta admit that I sat reading some of the new found info with my mouth agape

Just found this thread - nice to see another N gauge layout taking shape .

Emettman wrote:To turn 3 in a bare foot, the inner radius comes down to 7.5"
Another 3-4 inches off the right-hand scenery or extra on the board would make 9" the minimum radius.

In my experience I would NEVER go below 9" radius. To be honest, 12" is more preferable. Some larger locos cannot negotiate 9" curves and my layout (which has lots of them) suffers operationally from the tight bends. I would recommend either a bit of modellers licence in shortening the scenic section of the layout, or adding an extra foot to the overall length. 4 foot width offers plenty of space for decent radius curves at each end so no problem with that.

PinkNosedPenguin wrote:Just found this thread - nice to see another N gauge layout taking shape .

Emettman wrote:To turn 3 in a bare foot, the inner radius comes down to 7.5"
Another 3-4 inches off the right-hand scenery or extra on the board would make 9" the minimum radius.

In my experience I would NEVER go below 9" radius. To be honest, 12" is more preferable. Some larger locos cannot negotiate 9" curves and my layout (which has lots of them) suffers operationally from the tight bends. I would recommend either a bit of modellers licence in shortening the scenic section of the layout, or adding an extra foot to the overall length. 4 foot width offers plenty of space for decent radius curves at each end so no problem with that.

I must agree with PNP here about minimum radius. I followed advice to use no less than 10.5" radius curves even though on one section at the back of the board I had to superglue a 1" block of balsa to the side of the board to extend it's width so a 10.5" curve could avoid going over the edge. I run diesels including the very long Class 52 Westerns without any problems, and medium length steam up to Hall/Grange and Jubilee length with no issues at 10.5". HOWEVER, an A4 was once tried and it would slow as if squeezed by the track on entry into a 10.5" section which has no transit curve. So I am pretty sure that 9" radii would be limiting and 7.5" radii would be a show stopper even with my fleet. As for a 9F you can only imagine.

So PnP / Parkend - can you confirm then that I'd be better using 2nd, 3rd and 4th radius curves on the right hand side and 2nd and 3rd on the left - ignoring 1st radius curves altogether??
The layout will primarily be running steamers with coal wagons and maybe a two coach passenger with steam engine attached if that helps....

CandO wrote:So PnP / Parkend - can you confirm then that I'd be better using 2nd, 3rd and 4th radius curves on the right hand side and 2nd and 3rd on the left - ignoring 1st radius curves altogether??
The layout will primarily be running steamers with coal wagons and maybe a two coach passenger with steam engine attached if that helps....

Definitely, yes. But even better, use flexi track and have the largest radii you can

PinkNosedPenguin wrote:

CandO wrote:So PnP / Parkend - can you confirm then that I'd be better using 2nd, 3rd and 4th radius curves on the right hand side and 2nd and 3rd on the left - ignoring 1st radius curves altogether??
The layout will primarily be running steamers with coal wagons and maybe a two coach passenger with steam engine attached if that helps....

Definitely, yes. But even better, use flexi track and have the largest radii you can

The biggest can be about 16" Radius so will that work for an outer of three tracks using flexi?? Maybe 16", 14", 12"???

Sounds good to me

PinkNosedPenguin wrote:Sounds good to me

Agree with PNP.

I have now purchased the wood for the baseboards so construction shall begin soon!!

In the meantime I was thinking of just marking out the foot squares on the board surface and then transferring the layout map onto the boards as a guide to where things will go. Have already got some flexitrack and a brand new dcc N gauge train set shall arrive within the week so shall be able to assess the layout options much better.

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