St. Blazey's - My first layout

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TimberSurf
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:45 am

Re 16V DC, its usually quoted as 16VAC, the reason that its better than 12VDC, is that peak Voltage is theoretically ~1.414 times the RMS voltage = 22V! So a 16VDC is still less! Confused yet? :D

See my new thread http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44975

Better than upping voltage is to use a CDU, usually work very well at 12VDC, but can be fed with AC and/or higher voltages should you wish.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:41 am

TimberSurf wrote:Re 16V DC, its usually quoted as 16VAC, the reason that its better than 12VDC, is that peak Voltage is theoretically ~1.414 times the RMS voltage = 22V! So a 16VDC is still less! Confused yet? :D

Actually I come from an audio background so this makes sense to me in some aspects, but shouldn't the power supply be regulated to a constant power output? :)
(Peak = rms x 1.414 / rms = peak / 0.707)

TimberSurf wrote:Better than upping voltage is to use a CDU, usually work very well at 12VDC, but can be fed with AC and/or higher voltages should you wish.

Would the AC-DC adapter that I posted pictures of here - viewtopic.php?f=18&t=44775 ,be sufficent to power the point motors with a CDU, as on some points, 2 will be thrown together at the same time and thus will also need to power 2 permanant on LED's on the control panel for each?

If not sufficent, are they ok to run my LED building lights?
Does the symbol on the power supply of a square inside a square mean regulated?
Sorry for the confusion. This is all very new to me :?
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:07 am

A quick update for St. Blazey's...
I managed to buy a Bachmann digital starter set, Yes I know it's a train set :roll: , but read my forum signature below lol.
I've nearly finished my Ratio Lineside hut. I sat and thought about it for a couple of days before I went on to paint it as I have never done any weathering before. It's coming along nicely and I will post pictures when I have finished.

I also wanted to ask a question about baseboard surfaces if I may.
I've always planned to use sundeala with cork under the tracks to keep weight of the layout to a minimum and for ease of track pinning and my complete novice experience including working with wood. As mentioned earlier in my planning diary, I will be getting most of the baseboard materials for free, but the sundeala top I will be getting, I have been told, is called TEN TEST board. Does anyone know if this is the same as sundeala?
From what I have been described, it is but I would like to know if anyone else has heard of it.

The baseboard frame will be made from 3 by 1 for strength as the baseboard will be 7 foot 8 inches long by 2 feet deep with ply sides and ply backscene with eventually a tongue and groove lid and a tongue and groove fold up/down front.
The planning continues........
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:10 am

Do you work nights? You owl! :D

Actually I come from an audio background so this makes sense to me in some aspects, but shouldn't the power supply be regulated to a constant power output? :)
(Peak = rms x 1.414 / rms = peak / 0.707)

Your thinking is right, but for points, raw AC is OK and its the PEAK voltage that were looking for to give the umf (i.e.22v), solenoids are not bothered about supply being smooth.

Would the AC-DC adapter that I posted pictures of here - viewtopic.php?f=18&t=44775 ,be sufficient to power the point motors with a CDU, as on some points, 2 will be thrown together at the same time and thus will also need to power 2 permanant on LED's on the control panel for each?


You could use the ATX PC PSU, but as mentioned by Flashbang (and I would agree and not recommend it), no load issue and some serious extra cable/fusing makes it risky/problematical! A CDU will easily drive two points at a time, and allows a not so big power supply to be used. The point indication LED's and the house lighting can be run from same 12V. The Point motor 16v plus needs to be kept separate. Just buy two wall plug-in adapters, one 12VDC @300mA or above and one 16VAC @ 1 Amp or above. {Double square means PSU is "Double insulated", technically meaning, it does not need an Earth wire}{LED's take about 20mA, so 300mA supply = x150}
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:22 pm

TimberSurf wrote:Do you work nights? You owl! :D

No. Like many on the national rail network at the moment, and excuse the pun, i'm a bad sleeper. lol

Would the AC-DC adapter that I posted pictures of here - viewtopic.php?f=18&t=44775 ,be sufficient to power the point motors with a CDU, as on some points, 2 will be thrown together at the same time and thus will also need to power 2 permanant on LED's on the control panel for each?

Sorry, I think I may have caused some confusion here.
TimberSurf wrote:You could use the ATX PC PSU, but as mentioned by Flashbang (and I would agree and not recommend it)

From the advice I have received on this forum from your good self, Flashbang and others, I will definatly not be using an ATX PC Power supply,(the type that is internal in a tower pc) opting for wall warts instead.

The wall wart I already own in the picture posted on the previous link will be used if I am able.
I have 2 of these type of wall warts and here is what is printed on them:
For the first one (pictured in previous link)
BENROSS ELECTRICAL
AC-DC ADAPTOR MODEL:4426
INPUT 230V~50Hz 8.7W
OUTPUT:3-4.5-6-7.5-9-12V (next to this there is a line with 3 dashes underneath)
300mA 3.6VA(max)

The second wall wart says on it:
EUROSONIC UNIVERSAL
AC-DC ADAPTOR MODEL:ES-96 UK
INPUT: 240 V ~50Hz
OUTPUT: 3.4.5.6.7.5.9.12 V. (next to this there is a line with 3 dashes underneath)
CURRENT: 300Ma. MAX.

Both have polarity switches on them and switches to change between the different voltage settings.
As you say Timbersurf " Just buy wall plug-in adapters, one 12VDC @300mA or above"
I am assuming that both/either of these wall warts I own will be ok for running the LED scenery/building lighting? (But obviously not for the point motors)
I will point out here that every LED I have made for my buildings have 1K resisitors soldered to the anode (+) of each LED.

As for the 16VAC power supply for the point motors. Could you possibly point in me in the right direction for a purchase from maybe Maplins or fleabay as the ones that I have found have 2 pin USA mains connectors on them and I am in the U.K.

And just to ask, as again i'm getting a little confused, you say "The point indication LED's and the house lighting can be run from same 12V."
How would this be wired, as aren't the switches on the control panel connected to the points AND indication LED's, and thus on the 16v circuit?
I.E. There will be 2 LED's per point on the control panel, with only 1 of them lit at any one time to show point direction / setting, set by flicking the switch on the control panel attached to the point motor.

And to make it even more confusing (for me anyway), some control panel switches will control 2 point motors with LED's for both points AND one or two 2 aspect signals.
I might even add some LED's on the control panels "tracks" to show routes at a later date, hoping they can be fitted retrospectively.

I just wished my practical and technical skills and knowledge were as good as my imagination lol, but with all of the excellent guidance here I feel like....how did BR put it in the 80's??
"We're getting there" lol
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:28 pm

Were do you live? I t might be easier if I just pop round! lmao
Ok, both wallwarts can be used, one for house lights and reserve other for points indication
Each LED takes 1/50th of an Amp (20mA) [including the current limiting resister} so one wallwart, set at 12v will power around 15 LED's.

Re 16VAC for driving points, before I research a source, have you by chance got an old Laptop PSU? (19VDC or similar)
Indication of points gets a bit complicated, so we will do it in stages.
Recap:- Seep point motors with momentary switch's. (I assume you are sticking with insulfrog points)
The switch can only be used to power the points! The indication will have to run from the switch on the PM1 back to the panel! The only other way is to "memorise" point position from the momentary impulses of the switch with something like http://www.blocksignalling.co.uk/index.php/points-position-indicator-ppi1
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:16 am

TimberSurf wrote:Were do you live? I t might be easier if I just pop round! lmao
:lol:
TimberSurf wrote:have you by chance got an old Laptop PSU? (19VDC or similar)
Unfortunatly not, no.
TimberSurf wrote:Recap:- Seep point motors with momentary switch's. (I assume you are sticking with insulfrog points)
Yes sticking with insulfrog.
TimberSurf wrote:The switch can only be used to power the points! The indication will have to run from the switch on the PM1 back to the panel! The only other way is to "memorise" point position from the momentary impulses of the switch with something like http://www.blocksignalling.co.uk/index.php/points-position-indicator-ppi1

Ahh this makes a little more sense to me now electronically.
So 16vac for point motors and 12v for the panel lights coming off the point position indicator or switch on the PM1's.
The PPI1 sounds like a very interesting product too.
I also noticed that the point position indicator unit also has a version 2 named (PPI4-DC) although i'm not sure what the difference is yet except in price.
http://www.blocksignalling.co.uk/index. ... or-ppi3-dc
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:38 am

The difference is that the new PPi3 doesn't need resisters on the LED's!
Here's a quick circuit for wiring without above. I was going to use Seep, but have recently changed my mind to Cobalt (because I want electrofrog and indication), dug out my original design, shows two points as a pair and two 7way connecters, one at point motor for quick disconnection/testing/repairs and one at the control panel, with two LED'S per point, change colour. 16VAC shown but fed via a CDU.

Railway Wiring control 14 2 points.jpg
2 points wiring with connectors and separate supplies
Railway Wiring control 14 2 points.jpg (49.59 KiB) Viewed 2071 times
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:45 am

Re 16AC PSU source

You missed out! I saw one at the Train fair I went to on Saturday for £7.50! (Secondhand). I thought about you when I saw it!
Probably the most economical source is Ebay, Laptop PSU in my mind is perfect! Second hand, about £12 or new for £20. search for 19VDC or 20VDC, you will get one circa 4Amps that will murder all points! (with CDU even better)
P.S. CDU's can be had for a tenner or can be easily made if you can solder.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:21 am

Many thanks for the diagram Timbersurf. It really does help me to see how things are wired clearly and concisely :)
TimberSurf wrote:The difference is that the new PPi3 doesn't need resisters on the LED's!

With resisitors so cheap these days I think the extra £10 for the PPI4-DC is excessive so will be adding at least 2 of the PPi2 to the shopping list.
Maybe opting for a third for the last 2 points (18in total) or see if I can find a smaller version.
CDU and Laptop PSU also added to the shopping list for the point motors.
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby TimberSurf » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:36 am

Buying PPi will save a load of wiring! You only need two as some points will be paired and only need one switch and therefor one PPi input.
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:45 am

TimberSurf wrote:Buying PPi will save a load of wiring! You only need two as some points will be paired and only need one switch and therefor one PPi input.
Ahh thats excellent (and cheaper) news. I wasn't aware they could be used in that fashion. At a quick look I will need 11 switches and 22 LED's for the control panel excluding LED's on the panel tracks themselves if I decide to install them as well.
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:42 am

Just a quick update on my first layout.
I managed to purchase a Bachmann Digital start set for only £28.00 so have a DCC controller and 2 DCC engines :D and have put in the order for the free baseboard materials which hopefully will arrive soon.
Also slowly getting the track together I need.

One thing that I did think about was do I need to seal the sundeala/ten test board?
Can this be done with neat PVA or is there something else which I need?
Thanks
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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby alex3410 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:38 pm

£28 :shock: that's a steal - dont suppose there are any more going :lol:

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Re: St. Blazey's - My first layout

Postby End2end » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:53 pm

alex3410 wrote:£28 :shock: that's a steal - dont suppose there are any more going :lol:

Unfortunatly not. It was listed as NEW on fleabay, but when it arrived someone had stuck "Thomas " like faces on both locos.
I'm not sure how to remove them as they are glued on without damaging the loco's, But at a price like that I can't grumble.
Thanks
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